Garmin Metroguide Canada v5 Maps

Metroguide Canada v5

UPDATE Nov21/08: Warning, my initial impressions were a bit negative so I wanted to put this right at the top for those who may not read far enough down the discussion. My decision is that this latest update to Metroguide Canada is a welcome upgrade. There are many updates in the road maps. There is the addition of building footprints that exist in no other product I've seen. And there are massive numbers of additional POIs. It's definitely a keeper.
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I finally received my Metroguide Canada v5 maps today. They were a long time coming. Just as an update, last year and very early this year I had confirmation from two departments inside Garmin that there would never be another update to Metroguide Canada.

Then, a few weeks ago, someone stumbled across a mail-in rebate coupon on Garmin's website for any existing Metroguide Canada v4 users purchasing an upgrade to v5 between October 1 and December 31. After a Google search there were two Canadian retaillers who appeared to be carrying the new version. I ordered mine online from Prairie Geomatics.

A few days later I got an email from them saying that Garmin had shipped them a bunch of v4 product instead of v5. It turns out that Garmin has assigned them the same product code (SKU) and was having difficulty distinguishing between v4 and v5 for shipping purposes. Prairie Geomatics said they would ship as soon as they got it and would not charge my credit card until they shipped. Good enough for me.

I got a notice in my email this morning that they had shipped. Turns out they shipped by Express Post because the doorbell rang less than half an hour after I read the email and it was Canada Post with my Metroguide Canada v5.

Great service Prairie Geomatics!!

So, that's the good news.

What's not so good is the product. Metroguide Canada has been my standard for map detail in Canada. It has wonderful coverage of the geographic features. The detail for water features (lakes, rivers, streams, ocean coastlines) is very nearly topographic quality. Same goes for coverage of green spaces (national, provincial and municipal parks, etc.). And street detail in small cities and towns has always been top notch. Even as old as it is, there are still towns where it has street grids and street names where the latest version of City Navigator North America has only begun to show the street grid but still doesn't have street names.

I was expecting great things from such a long delayed update. So I fumbled my way through the bubble pack, managing not to slice myself on the stoopid stuff and loaded the DVD into my PC. Installation was quick. Fired it up and........

Oh Phoooooey!!! Mapsource 6.14.1 is on the DVD and installed itself. For those who haven't updated their Mapsource recently and may not be aware, 6.14.1 is badly broken. It's really pretty .. much nicer display than earlier versions. But it can't download maps to Mobile PC and there are some free Garmin-compatible topographic maps that it refuses to use ... won't even load until you delete them. These are maps that have been working fine in many previous versions of Mapsource, so it's not like there was any problem with the maps.

Well, I'll have to re-install 6.13.7. But I can't wait to look at the new data in v5, so get over it for now.

More Phooooey!! It doesn't look like this is an update to the map data at all. I have a couple of places in my city (Regina, SK) that I check to see if the map data in a new map product has caught up with reality. The very first place I looked I see what looks like the old street layout. Switch to v4 .. Yup, it's the same as in v4. Switch to City Navigator 2009 .. looks like the right layout. Switch to City Navigator v8 .. looks right. Switch to City Navigator v6 .. looks right, too. So, even though at least the last four versions of City Navigator had it updated properly, Metroguide Canada v5 still shows the old layout.

What's with that??

But there's lots more to check out. Perhaps this is an anomoly and there are lots of updates elsewhere, and maybe updated POIs. I'll do some more digging today and report back. I just wanted to get my first impressions down. Let's hope my next report is more positive.

...ken...

It looks like there is a lot more data of some kind in v5. When I select the entire country in Mapsource I get 221 maps for a total of 723.5MB.

When I select the entire country for v4 I get 221 maps but only 324.6MB. That's a huge amount of additional data in v5

Some of it is obvious. Looking around Regina I see loads more POIs (I also see them positioned in the wrong places ). A quick review of a few streets nearby with lots of commercial development - much of it recent - shows a very large percentage of them are included in v5. Far more than v4. Even more than City Navigator 2009.

But when checking their locations, it's obvious that there are many many errors in their placement. At least the few in the same area in v4 are placed fairly close to their actual location.

I see something really interesting in v5 when viewing it in Mapsource that I have never seen in any other map product, not even City Navigator 2009. I see building footprints displayed. For example, in a couple of nearby locations where there are malls, the outline of the mall building is displayed. Same thing with a nearby Superstore and Walmart, as well as some strip malls and such. Over in an industrial area not far from me, the footprints of many of the buildings are also outlined.

This is a neat feature, at least in Mapsource. I'll have to download the maps to my handheld to see if that data gets transfered and displayed.

The disturbing thing about this is that the building footprints of all those I've looked at are in the right locations, visually, on the map. But the associated POI icons, for those that have them, are quite a bit off in many cases. Strange.

More to come later...

...ken...

Here are two files that show the difference in number of POIs in a nearby commercial area. The one on the left is from v4; the one on the right is from v5.

It's not just that there are more POIs. They are much more up to date. Unfortunately they are also not very well located.

There is a large cluster of POI icons in the v5 image. However, over half of the businesses represented by those icons are actually located on the east (right-hand) side of that divided roadway.

...ken...

Attached Images

v4-POIs.jpg (44.7 KB)

v5-POIs.jpg (49.3 KB)

Here's a screenshot of an area of Regina with a lot of commercial development. The building outlines you see include a large mall, several strip malls, individual businesses, some apartment buildings and even a large retirement home.

I don't know what else these building outlines display in. That is, I don't know if they will show up when displayed in earlier versions of Mapsource (I'll find out when I reinstall 6.13.7) or in Mobile PC or on my handhelds. I'll test that next. I don't know if there is a technology change in these maps that might not allow the building outlines to display in older things. We'll see....

...ken...

Attached Images

v5-footprints.jpg (60.7 KB)

Very interesting, Ken. Thanks for sharing!

On the bottom of your Garmin Metroguide Canada v5 screenshot I see "DMTI". So it is pure DMTI data, no Navteq at all? The geocoding of the POIs aside, I'm looking forward to reading your feedback on how Garmin Metroguide Canada v5 compares to Navteq products in road map coverage in smaller Canadian towns; areas in which DMTI has been better in the past, but in which Navteq has made improvements in recent years.

I don't see any evidence of Navteq data. As you'll see below, that might not be such a good thing.

That's an easy one. Warning: I'm still exploring familiar things in and around Regina.

There are a two bedroom communities about 15 minutes east of the city on the TransCanada Highway. In MGC v4 there is very little street data. Not much of a street grid for one and none at all for the other. In City Navigator v6 there is even less data. MGC v4 and CNNA v6 have the same minimal street grid but MG v4 has the street names.

In City Navigator v8 (I skipped v7 so I can't talk about it) the street grid expanded to reflect the major structure of the two communities, which have pretty much grown together now. It still has no street names but it has the basic grid. CNNA2009 hasn't changed; same grid, no street names.

MGC v5 still has the same puny bit of street grid as v4. The only changes are some POIs added. It doesn't even add the grid expansions that City Navigator has added.

As I look around Regina and area at locations I use to measure progress in the mapping data, I am finding few improvements in the actual map data from MGC v4 to MGC v5. One of the areas I check was corrected in CNNA v6. That same location has changed in MGC v5 but it's wrong. The part of the road that has changed, in reality, is shown correctly in CNNA as far back as v6. But in MGC v5 it's still showing exactly the same as v4 (hasn't been that way for years) and there is the addition of a road that doesn't exist.

There are a huge number of additional POIs in Regina and area. It makes CNNA 2009 look sparse by comparison. But so many of the ones I've looked at are mislocated, in some cases by a few blocks or even a few kilometres. If they can get the building footprints located so well, how can they miss so badly on the individual POIs? I guess I'll have to check actual addresses to see if the problem is with bad geocoding of the POIs or if the address ranges are so badly off.

...ken...

This one's for Terry, and for everyone else it illustrates how many more POIs there are in Metroguide Canada v5 than in City Navigator North American 2009. There is just a huge increase over MGCv4 and even a significant increase over CNNA2009.

All those little blue squares (yeah, the tiny ones you see scattered around) in each of the images are POIs.

...ken...

Attached Images

Ladysmith-MGCv4-POI.jpg (54.3 KB)

Ladysmith-MGCv5-POI.jpg (59.4 KB)

Ladysmith-CNNA2009-POI.jpg (49.9 KB)

More on those building footprints in Metroguide Canada v5... They do NOT display in Mobile PC or Mobile XT.

I reinstalled Mapsource 6.13.7 so I could transfer stuff to Mobile PC again. The good news is that the footprints display in the older version of Mapsource. They also display in nroute.

But NOT in Mobile PC or Mobile XT. What's with that???

I compiled and transfered MGCv5 to my iQue 3600 to see how it looks there. It works fine.The building footprints display properly. This beasty is five years old.

Finally, I checked on my eTrex Legend HCx and the building footprints display just fine on them.

Now I need to find someone with a Nuvi to test this on. The Mobile PC and Mobile XT software are designed to, essentially, put a Nuvi on your laptop or your PDA. Both are the latest available versions of the software (which is to say, very new). If this software is closely related to the Nuvi, it's possible that this feature won't display on them, either.

...ken...

After looking around at other parts of Regina, and other parts of western Canada that I'm familiar with, I can see massive additions to Metroguide Canada v5.

My initial impressions were a bit negative so I want to clarify my current feelings about it, two days after. My decision is that this latest update to Metroguide Canada is a welcome upgrade. There are many updates in the road maps. There is the addition of building footprints that exist in no other product I've ever seen. And there are massive numbers of additional POIs. It's definitely a keeper.

Just to temper the expectations of those fellow Canucks who think they'll rush right out and buy a copy, this product is no different than any other set of digital maps from any other map vendor. That is to say that it's out of date as soon as it hits the store shelves. The POI data is generally at least two years old. The road data will be that old or older. This is true of all digital map products from all vendors because of the time it takes to assemble the data into the vendors' proprietary formats, then test and package it for sale. So, it's a worthy upgrade to MGC v4, but it's not magic.

...ken...

In (virtually) motoring around western Canada in Metroguide Canada v5 to some of my favorite haunts I can see a lot of additions to the geographic features - the water features and green spaces.

For instance, in a lot of the newer upscale subdivisions in Regina the developers have centered the development around a manmade water feature (they usually refer to it as a "lake", but it's rarely much more than a pond). All of those "lakes" have appeared in MGCv5.

Another example: There is a lake in Alberta on the Red Deer river, west of Innisfail, called Glennifer Lake. It has been there for many years. It finally appears in MGC v5. .... But -- part of the frustration of this product -- they added the lake, but they don't show the road across the dam, which has been there as long as the lake ... well, longer actually. So if you are navigating near the lake and want to get from the north side to the south side, you will be routed way east of where you really need to go to get across.

The upside is that not only is the entire lake still missing from City Navigator North America 2009, CNNA2009 doesn't even show most of the Red Deer river, which has been there even longer!

The more I look around in MGCv5 the more additions I see to the geographic features (rivers, lakes, streams, parks, railroad tracks, etc.). In this single feature alone, Metroguide Canada is so far ahead of the Navteq data used in other maps (Garmin City Navigator, iNav iGuidance, Microsoft Streets&Trips) that there is simply no basis for comparison.

...ken...

From a review of the Nuvi 7x5 series on another site:

"The 7x5 series has transparent 3-D building view (where available)"

And: "Also unique to the 7x5 series is support for detailed 3-D landmark models, where available."

http://www.gpsmagazine.com/2008/11/garmin_nuvi_265wt_review.php?page=10

Scroll to the bottom of the page. Perhaps this is where the building footprints in v5 are used?

Thanks Ken. That might be what it is. You can't browse the map in 3D mode in either Mobile PC or Mobile XT so I guess I'll have to go for a drive with them to see. None of the building footprints I see are nearby.

...ken...

The white squares (building footprints) don't show up on my Nuvi 200c but there are now a lot more usable POIs, many even in the right place!!

Terry

I did a quick check of POIs by transferring some of MGCv5 to Mobile PC on my main computer. The POIs are only visible if I disable CNNA NT 2009.

However, if I choose from POIs, even with MGCv5 disabled, I get a whole lot more to choose from.Look at this for food. First is with the Food choices on a computer where v5 has not been added to GMPC. Second is where v5 has been added but is disabled.

Terry

Attached Images

Food.jpg (101.0 KB)

Food MGCAv5.jpg (122.6 KB)

Interesting. I may have to check these maps out. Are they still not locked to a single GPS? (Not that I use them on more than one GPS, its more the principle of the thing than anything else...)

If the free topo maps you mentioned early on are mine, you should know that the newest versions (2.0 and later) do work with Mapsource 6.14. You can make 1.5 work too, its just a pain.

With the buildings, do you happen to know what entity type they are rendered with? I have some building footprints on my maps, and I'm curious if they are rendered with the same entity. (see N51 05.891 W114 08.618 for an example on my maps).

Hi Dale,

Yep, still not locked. I bought them to use with my iQue 3600 -- still my primary navigation device and all-round do-everything companion. But for evaluation purposes in this thread, I've tried it on Mobile PC (Acer laptop/Vista), Mobile XT (Palm T|X), iQue 3600A and eTrex Legend HCx and it works on all of them.

Yes, the comment was related to the older version of your Canadian topos as well as a couple of American ones (Arizona and Portland, OR, IIRC). I have 2.1 of your Canadian topos installed and Mapsource 6.14.1 was happy with them (it's gone again .. I cannot stand how slow it renders and I can't transfer to/from Mobile PC with it).

I keep meaning to put your maps (I have downloaded both the ISO and the ZIP) online on my second computer as a torrent download to help with the load but it wasn't immediately obvious how to do it in BitTorrent. So it's on the todo list somewhere to figure that out. Gotta find some more of those handy-dandy RoundToIts. I'm running a bit low...


I confess that I've never looked inside one of Garmin's .img files so I wouldn't know what to look for. I'll take a peek but I don't promise anything.

...ken...

I don't know if I've mentioned it anywhere where you look, but I've got a torrent of 2.1 going, I just haven't gotten around to updating the website (if you google ibycus torrent, you should get the URL)

Dale

Yes, I know about the torrent for 2.1. That's (partly) how I got the 2.1 ISO and ZIP files. Most of it came from the server seed but some came from a couple of other systems. That's the first time I've ever used BitTorrent. It was dead simple to do the download but it's not so simple to figure out how to set up those two files to share back out to help with the sharing of them.

I've used other filesharing clients in the past, like Bearshare and similar programs, and it was really simple to set up the sharing, but it's not as obvious on the BitTorrent client. I'll get around to looking at it again sometime.

If you're interested, I've attached a couple of images from Mapsource 6.13.7 of the location around those coordinates you posted. As you can see, the building footprints are similar but different. The outline of the mall is different in MGCv5 than in the 2.1 topo, for instance. And there are more buildings showing in MGCv5. Sorry about how little contrast there is in the Topo shot. There doesn't seem to be any way to control the colour selections in Mapsource.

I should mention that the POI icons shown in the Metroguide Canada v5 shot are completely controlled by Mapsource. When you use the maps in other devices and programs, the icons available in those programs will be used. My samples in a previous message, above, from Mapsource 6.14.1 are closer to what I seen in Mobile PC and Mobile XT .. much more visible and interesting. So, whatever icons a person is used to seeing in, say, their Nuvi or Mobile PC are the icons they will see with Metroguide Canada v5.

...ken...

Attached Images

Ibycus footprint test MGCv5.jpg (70.2 KB)

Ibycus footprint test Topo21.jpg (67.7 KB)

Looks like it must be limited to specific Garmin devices. Probably mostly new models of Nuvi. I checked it on Mobile PC and Mobile XT and I see nothing in 3D mode. I drove through a couple of areas where there are lots of these building outlines in the map data and they simply don't display in either of the Mobile products. Nothing in 3D mode and nothing in 2D mode.

At least I see the building outlines in Mapsource and on my two non-3D nav devices (eTrex and iQue), but nothing at all in any mode on the Mobile software.

As Terry mentioned, nothing on his Nuvi 200 either.

Terry, were the footprints displayed in 2D mode, like in Mapsource? Or is there nothing at all, just like the Mobile software?

...ken...

Yes, that's the nice thing about the way Garmin has created the ability to combine different maps into a single compiled map for the various devices. Enabling and disabling the different products affects what gets displayed on the screen, but the search software still finds everything in the combined database. That goes for addresses, cities, intersections as well as POIs.

Since I got my iQue 3600 in 2003, I've almost always loaded a combination of Metroguide Canada and City Navigator. That gives me the combined POIs from both products and the ability to display the street data from whichever is the most accurate, at the time, in the location I'm at.

I've found the same thing with topos on my eTrex. I load a combination of Topo Canada and the Ibycus topos. Topo Canada gives me street and road names and a surprising amount of auto routing and Ibycus gives me more complete topo data.

...ken...

With most torrent clients I've used, you just keep it open, and the file in place once your done to continue seeding. The only problem you could potentially have is with firewall settings.

The difference is probably an 'age of data' thing. I'm guessing my building outlines are the same age as the road data that comes with the BNDT dataset, which I'm guessing is about mid 1980s in most places. Good to see though that the data is at least rendered the same (the buildings that is). Means I picked the right entity type to use for the maps.

Dale

Different problem ... I downloaded it on my main PC which I have no interest in having connected to the torrent. So I installed the client on my other PC and I can't figure out how to point it at the files I want to share.

I'm glad you got the right entity type. Your topos should be a blast to look at on a Nuvi 7xx.

...ken...

Ahhh I see. Can you start it downloading on the other PC, close the torrent client and then replace the partially downloaded file with the complete one, and reopen the client?

Dale

P.S. Bandwidth isn't really an issue for me, other than for speeding up the downloads. My contract with hostmonster gives me unlimited downloads and unlimited space. The biggest reason for the torrent is download reliability.

There has been rumour (on the GC forum) that these are not auto-routable. Can you confirm they still auto-route?

Hi Red90,

By "these" I assume you mean Dale's Ibycus v2.1 Canadian topos. I can't get them to auto-route.

Specifically, in Mapsource if I select the Route tool from the toolbar and click on any two waypoints, I always get a route that is a straight line between the two.

Here's a test I just did ..

- In Metroguide Canada v5 I clicked a couple of waypoints in Regina and got a route that follows the streets and includes a couple of turns.

- I switched to the Ibycus topos, selected the new route on the Routes tab, right-clicked it and selected "Recalculate route". Straight line.

- Switched to Topo Canada v2, selected "Recalculate route". Back to the same streets and two turns as in MGC v5.

Next I did the same three steps to get a route between my place in Regina to Mountain Equipment Coop in Calgary. Same results. Ibycus doesn't have routing data to support either of those test routes. Interestingly, Topo Canada v2 does.

...ken...

-

Oops, I just noticed the title of the thread. Were you perhaps wondering if MGC v5 is not autoroutable? So far I have had no difficulties with autorouting in it. As you can see from the testing in the previous message, it was MGC v5 that I used to get the initial route.

If it's MGC v5 that's the concern, is there anyplace you would like me to test?

...ken...

No, that is fine. Someone was posting on the Geocaching forums that it (MG CAN v5) did not autoroute and I wanted to check. Thanks.

When I went to purchased my copy I was told that it didn't autoroute. But they were mistaken, I loaded a small test map onto my 60cx and it had no problems creating a drivable route.
Not really sure what to think of v5. Some places are still as poor as v4, some a little better than City Navigator 2009 and some I'm beginning to wonder if they decided to just make up roads.
I wonder where the road data comes from, in the Brampton area they have the 410 extension up to Mayfield Rd which opened late last year. But they are missing the Orangeville Hwy 9 town by-pass which opened almost 3 years ago.

I think the autoroute issue developed in v4. Most of the advertising I saw at the time was it could autoroute but was not optimized for it (probably to sell more CS6). I used it a lot on a Street Pilot III and for the most part, routing was excellent. I expect the same from v5.

I see some errors and missing roads in my area that are in CNNA NT 2009 and vice versa. I tried some simple routes on both systems today (v5 on a PDA running XT and 2009 on a Nuvi) and both did a competent job. I love the fact that I can now find things using POIs. As Ken says, not all are in the correct location; but at least they exist and a lot are correct.

Terry

As I mentioned earlier in my assessment in this thread, I decided to keep Metroguide Canada v5. But I'm still really ambivalent about it. Yesterday I was totally pissed at it because I needed to get to a place that I have set as a waypoint in a bedroom community east of town. MGC v5 didn't improve in that area at all from v4, and it was way behind at that time. I had to stop and switch maps to City Navigator, which has had a much more complete street grid for at least the last four versions.

The very first thing I check to assess accuracy is an interchange a couple miles north of me. MGC v5 still has a road branching from it wrong. What's more annoying in v5 is that they've added a completely fictional service road parallel to the highway that has never existed ... just seem to have invented it out of nowhere.

But in other areas there are huge improvements. And the number of POIs puts even City Navigator to shame. There are huge numbers more.

What annoys me is that for navigation I just can't trust it by itself. It really bothers me that I still have to have City Navigator loaded to cover areas where it shouldn't be necessary at all any more.

...ken...

Just picked it up.

I'll post my finding from the Calgary area here: http://forums.calgarycachers.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3151

This is horribly overpriced. The CN NT 2009 upgrade was selling for the same price as MG 5 on Amazon.com last year and elsewhere.

BTW. Garmin has an NT version: City Navigator® North America NT – Canada Only $59.99 USD. https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=253&pID=8750

Yes but it is unlocked so you can put it on all your devices and computers. I wonder how Garmin makes any money on it with the limited audience.

Terry

Limited audience yes, but Garmin will be selling v5 for the next several years.

I don't expect to buy more than one copy though. The audience is Garmin Canadian users only as opposed to North America for CNNA NT.

Terry

With previous versions of Metroguide > 4, USA for example, you could not do auto routing.

Routing is available on MG Canada v5 just as it was on MG Canada v4.

Terry

As Terry said, both MG Canada v4 anc v5 do autorouting. I have done it on my iQue 3600, eTrex Legend HCx, Mobile PC and Mobile XT with both versions.

...ken...

Well, that's a good thing. I'm surprised to hear they've included the auto routing though.

I can see one paying more for this over CN NT Canada only if you plan to buy new Garmin Units in the future and this would save you the added expense of getting an unlock code.

That is not the only reason. MG Canada has a lot more data. 725 MB versus 125 MB.

I have CNNA NT 2009 and MG Can v5 on all my Garmin devices here. The main advantage of v5 at the moment is the great increase in POIs for my area. The routing data is similar and the street data is mixed. I have looked at several areas in BC and Alberta I am expecting to travel in next year. The level of detail looks good, especially the geography; road data is similar.

Terry

Compared to, say, the old version? NT 2009 is over a 1GB.

Increases in POI is good, but do you think it's worthwhile upgrade just for the POIs if you already have NT 2009?

For me, the POIs and geographical accuracy (compared to NT 2009) is enough. But then, I have used Garmin products for years.

The comment about data is also important. If you compare the Canadian portion of CNNA NT 2009 with MG Canada v5, you will see there is a lot more information in v5. More is always better! Of course accuracy is also nice but neither holds the winning hand there.

Terry

Attached Images

Map Size 2009.jpg (124.6 KB)

Map Size Can v5.jpg (64.8 KB)

Hi Newbee,

If you go into Mapsource, select City Navigator North America 2009 in the dropdown menu, select the map selection tool and select only the Canadian map tiles, check the Maps tab and you'll see that Terry's number is correct. The Canadian portion of CNNA 2009 is pathetically small. This is what you will get in the City Navigator North America - Canada Only product. It's less than half the size of Metroguide Canada v4 and less than 1/5th the size of MGC v5.

Whether having more geographic and POI data is "worth it" is something only you can answer. It's totally dependent on where and how you use your nav maps. If you never search for POIs then clearly the number of POIs won't be relevant to you. If you never get outside the city limits, the geographic information (lakes, rivers, parks, etc.) probably won't matter to you.

As both Terry and I have mentioned, the street data is a mixed bag .. some places better in CNNA 2009 and some better in MGC v5.

...ken...

Hi, I am new here. Just got my Metroguide Canada v5 last week. When I am in Vancouver. I noticed that MGC v5 did 'create' a lot of not existing road. For example, in Forest Glen Park, Burnaby, BC, Canada (49.237021, -122.993243). There are only small no-name trails actually exist in the park. But on GPS loaded only with MGC v5 you'll see a lot of street in the park. Funny...