I'm sorry if this has been discussed before. I am a new user, and did a forum search and came up empty.

I've used Streets & Trips for many years. I use it strictly for trip pre-planning, and use a regular GPS in the car or RV. My question is about the fuel usage reminder. It has been very lame in previous releases, and wonder if they've improved it with 2009 version?

In previous versions, at least up to 2008, there is no way (that I've found) to reset the fuel counter. It starts at zero at the start of your trip, and every NNN miles, it reminds you it's time to purchase fuel.

I would simply like to somehow indicate, OK, I'm full here, and as I plan the trip realize that I am now getting close to time to refuel, and then indicate at a particular stop that I have re-fueled, resetting the fuel counter.

Right now, I just get a message every 800 miles, which after the first refueling is generally no longer correct. It seems like a simple thing, but it's really annoying.


One other question I've had, is there a way to display in the trip directions window, the "daily" mileage, rather than only the total mileage from the start of the trip? Yes, I can subtract the two values, but it would be nice to look up and see OK, that day is about 400 miles, or whatever. Is that possible?

Thanks in advance,
Ray

You might use the "Create Drivetime Zone" Tool to plan a trip. Of course, its metric is time rather than distance but that might be more useful anyway.

On your other point, that might be a useful addition to the S&T Wishlist (this might be, too) elsewhere in the forum.

SpadesFlush,

Thanks for the note. I guess I'm not quite understanding, however. Are not drivetime zones circular zones around a specific point, not along a route?

Maybe I'm missing something obvious (quite possible), but the current fuel reminder seems completely useless.

What I had imagined is this: Assuming maybe I can drive 800 miles on a tank (large RV tank!). Right now, every 800 miles, S&T puts a note in the directions log, a reminder to get fuel.

But let's say, I drive 400 miles to AZ from Southern CA, and want to then fuel up where fuel is cheaper. So, at the 400 mile mark, I refuel. I'd like somehow to add a stop in S&T and tell it, reset the fuel counter here.

Then in another 800 miles, I should get another indicator, rather than in 400 miles, when I still have 1/2 a tank of fuel. I would plan another fuel stop accordingly, and reset the fuel counter again.

I'm not sure how a drivetime zone would help?

Maybe adding this to the wishlist is the best course. I just wanted to be sure I hadn't missed something obvious in the software.

Ray

No, no, no, I did not mean to suggest Drivetime Zones as a solution to the gas fill-ups issue; in fact, I thought your second question was not exactly related to your first question.

I take your point about having the Fuel Consumption refuel warning calculations resetting upon fill-up rather than start of the entire route.

Here is a workaround pending MSFT accepting your Wishlist entry on the subject. Use the Measuring Tool [Ctrl-E] to trace along the route from the fill-up point to your estimated tank range. As you draw the trace, it keeps up-dating the distance so you can see how far you are. Enter a Stop on your route (Pushpin or not) and recalculate. Then, you can delete the measurement trace when you decide where to fill up.

Ahh, I see. Thank you for the clarification.

Ray, I've never used the fuel feature myself, but I did hear the same feedback from several users over the years, so indeed it would be useful to have some way of resetting Streets & Trips. But I've always wondered, how about if you just simply delete the portion of the trip you have already passed? Wouldn't that achieve the goal?

Hi Marvin,

Main reason is that I'm not using S&T on the road, but only pre-planning a trip. I then print out everything including the directions etc. Ultimately I use a GPS in the RV, but I like to have all my stops planned and laid out in advance.

Ray

Hi Ray,

I'm kind of confused. If you aren't using S&T for navigation on the road, what difference does it make about the fuel tracking resets?

I agree that for navigation use it's currently not terribly useful the way it works. But if you aren't even using it when you're on the road you won't be getting the warnings. In that case, why would it matter if they are right or wrong?

I'm not trying to persuade you not to recommend it as a good enhancement. I'm just trying to understand if, and how, it affects the way you currently use it.

...ken...

Hi Ken,

It's just for planning purposes. I generally use S&T when I'm planning a large RV trip. I drive a 45 bus, and unfortunately cannot just simply stop at any fuel station, due to my large size.

So, I try to make sure that I have fuel stops scheduled at large truck stops within the a reasonable mileage. If the software could reliably tell me that I was nearing my pre-set fuel distance, I could more easily plan.

Is it impossible now? No. It's just kind of awkward, that I have to manually keep track of overall mileage at a scheduled stop, and then manually subtract as I plan the trip, to make sure I'm in range. If the software allowed me to reset the counter, it would just be easier.

I guess I would have to ask the question in reverse, however. I don't quite see why a fuel reminder would be useful on a computer while driving. While I'm driving, I've got a fuel gauge, and trip computer which tell me how many miles I've got left, not just some estimate from S&T.

Thanks for the comment. I am glad to know that I hadn't stupidly missed this feature and just didn't know how to properly use it.

Ray

Thanks for asking that question, Ray. That thought had also occured to me as perhaps the more practical question but I couldn't figure out a way to ask it without seeming impertinent or downright rude.

I am primarily a Garmin user so I use Garmin's Mapsource program for trip planning. The routing tool it has is dead simple to use. It's a point-and-click tool that lets you simply click a start point on the map and click another point on the map. At each click it (re)calculates the route and displays the distance and driving time. Knowing the range of my fuel tank I can just click places along my route until I get close to the distance I would like to refuel.

If I have specific station brands or a particular type of fuel (eg. diesel) that I need/prefer, I can display those POIs on the map and click on one that looks to be about the right distance. Then I end that route and start a new one from that spot.

For a long, multi-stop, multi-day trip, I would do the overall trip route first. Mapsource allows you to do multiple routes on the same map so with the overall route already displayed, I can use the route tool to do "sub-routes" for things like desired driving times, fueling limits, etc.

It's so much easier to do it than to describe it.

The downside of Mapsource is that it's missing some of the pure planning features that S&T has. S&T is much richer in some ways. But I'm an ad hoc sort of planner anyway, so Mapsource is my preference. It makes the quick and dirty sorts of things I like to do so much easier than S&T.

...ken...

Perhaps if this feature was enriched to meet Ray's and others needs we would use it more.

Ken,

Thanks for the note regarding Mapsource. I'll take a look at that. Sounds interesting. I will admit I struggled a bit in responding, also trying to carefully word things to not appear rude. It is so hard in a forum or email sense to judge the tone of a response.

The Mapsource method seems interesting, so I'll take a peak at that. I'd also like to find something that gives reasonable elevation cross sections, so I can see what kind of grades I will be climbing/descending.

Driving a big rig has changed the way I plan trips. What may be trivially easy in a car isn't in the RV. Fuel as we've discussed is one aspect. But sharp elevation grades, low bridges, tight booths at toll roads, small roads etc are all concerning now, which makes at least some amount of planning important.

Ray

You sound like a candidate for Mapsource with a set of topo maps.

Topo maps contain elevation data and Mapsource can use that data to show the profile of a route or track. I'll attach a picture of a simple route with a profile just to illustrate. If you want to look this up on Google so you can see a satellite shot, the route is from the Superstore Gas Bar in Cranbrook, BC to the Extra Foods Gas Bar in Creston, BC. There's not a lot of elevation change because this runs mainly through a huge valley. I'll do another one with a more interesting profile.

...ken...

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Here are some shots of the profile from Creston, BC to Salmo, BC. The profile window has a feature that allows you to click on any spot on the profile and it will display the distance from the beginning of the route and the vertical height at that point. Neat stuff.

You can see from the profile that this route climbs about 1200 metres and drops back down about the same amount in 83.5 kilometres. You can also see that the down is much steeper than the up when going in the Creston to Salmo direction (east to west). So in this case an even bigger issue than fuel for a large heavy vehicle might be the brakes heating on the down part of the trip. You won't need to use the gas pedal much on the down part so you'll probably gain back any excess fuel use on the up part.

Oh yeah, I'm using Garmin's Topo Canada for the profiles. And I've intentionally done relatively short routes so the profile characteristics will be really obvious. I have been over this route a zillion times over the years so I know it fairly well. The more normal approach would be to do the entire route, look at the overall profile and then do short experimental routes on the lumpier looking parts to see what the actual elevation profile is for segments like this one.

...ken...

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That is excellent. That's exactly what I'm after. I'm going to pick up a copy of Mapsource today.

Thanks Ken!

Hi Ray,

Just so you know, you can't actually buy Mapsource by itself. And it's no good without maps anyway. Mapsource comes on all of Garmins map product DVDs. So in your case, you need topo maps to get the elevation data. The Garmin US topos come with Mapsource. And the latest version of the Garmin topos include DEM data. All that means is that you get the really nice 3D shading on the topo maps so you get a good visual of the terrain.

You don't need the 24K topos for road driving. All you are looking for is something with the elevation data, so you just need the United States 100K topos. Get the DVD version, not the ones on the SD cards. You only get Mapsource on the DVD distribution.

...ken...

Ken, thanks again. Didn't get out to the store today, but will asap.

The easiest way to recaculate your next fuel stop would be to recaculate your route from your current location ( F3 key if you have a GPS connected and active). You just have to make sure you clear all of your stops in the route planner that you have already passed or it will backtrack to those locations. When I plan the route at home, I always save it then you can save it as a different file a second time. That way you always have the original copy you can access and use if you mess up the one you have been changing while enroute.

That works great, IF you are driving with S&T. My particular issue is that I only use this for trip pre-planning for long trips. On a long trip I will generally try to plan where I'm stopping for fuel, and would like to reset the counter at specific stops, just like you change arrival time, or departure time.

If, for example, I have a 1000 mile fuel range, but I stop at 800 miles to grab first fuel, the rest of the trip reminders for fuel are completely bogus.

Ray

Sorry, now I'm even more confused why you would operate this way. If you aren't using S&T for navigation but only for pre-trip planning why would you worry about planning a whole trip worth of fuel stops in advance anyway, other than to explore possibilities?

You have a pretty good idea what kind of range your vehicle has. For Day 1 planning check the potential fuel stops in the general range of desired distance for the day and make a note of them.

At the end of Day 1 driving you now know where you are and what your fuel situation is (whether you bothered to fuel yet or not). Use that info for planning the next day's potential fuel stop(s) and make a note of them.

Repeat at the end of each day's travel. That way, when you're feeling like a fuel stop you can just punch it into whatever you're using for navigation and get routing to the fuel stop.

800-1,000 mile range??? Man, my butt and bladder won't handle more than 2½ to 3 hours without a stop so I have lots of potential fuel stops each day.

...ken...

Excellent point, Ken. When we go on a long family trip, we also do like to stop every couple of hours to rest a little, etc. That is the reason I have never fully understood the reasons(s) behind people bringing up this topic of resetting fuel in Streets & Trips.

Different people use software differently. We all have our own preferences. I'm sure there must be a valid and very good reason for people asking for a way to reset fuel in Streets & Trips after they refuel, as I have heard this request numerous times on numerous forums and groups.

Ken,

It's pretty simple. I use S&T to plan trips in my RV. It's a 45 foot bus, and as such, I cannot simply pull in to any fuel station on the road. I exclusively use large truck stops.

So, as I plan the trip, I also plan fuel stops. I print up the driving directions, and right now, I get fuel-stop warnings in places that make no sense. If I could simply indicate at a specific stop to reset the fuel counter, then the warnings in directions would be more accurate.

Is this a deal breaker. By no means. But, a simple change would make the fuel reminders much more valuable, to me at least. As it is now, I have to manually remember where I'm planning to stop for fuel, then consult the drivers directions, subtract indicated mileage from previous stop, and try to arrange a fuel stop within the range of my tank. I would rather set the fuel range to something within 100 miles of my capacity, and when I see the fuel warning in the drivers directions, find a stop that I can use, add it in to the trip, and tell S&T reset here.

It's really not a big deal, but would just make trip planning more convenient.

Ray

PS: I do indeed stop for a rest and stretch, much more often than I refuel!

Thanks for the explanation, Ray. That helps. I think my confusion came a little bit from the fact that my prefered trip planner isn't S&T. S&T is too structured for the way I prefer to work. That's both its strength and weakness. It's really rich in planning features but in order to use those features you end up, occasionally, in a bit of a straitjacket.

As Marvin said, different strokes. It's what keeps this forum from becoming dull and boring.

...ken...

Ken, what would your preferred trip planner be? I'm always interested in other solutions.

Actually, I find bladder considerations to be more of a restraining factor for planning stops but let's not go there.

I don't drive Big Rigs or RVs. My MR2 has a range of 350+ miles.
I prefer driving some trips nonstop, however need to fuel up every 350 miles or so.
I have driven 1200 to 1500 miles stopping for fuel and bladder only. These trips are to spend time with people I'm going to see, not to site-see unlong the way.

I will be running a short marathon from CT to PA and back over Labor day weekend. It is about 365 miles one way. I stop only to fuel about a mile from my brothers house. Top down, mpa player loaded with oldies, pipe stoking, plenty of black coffee and no grass growing between my toes!

I will be taking a slightly longer and visually nice route, just not really slowly. Soft ice cream 'n' cone will be the only thing that will make me stop....well maybe my bladder(darn that black coffee).....I'm not getting any younger! ;-p

Did I mention black coffee?

My prefered trip planner is Garmin's Mapsource program. It comes with Garmin's maps, which I have plenty of. I have three Garmin handhelds and Garmin Mobile PC on my netbook (along with nRoute, iGuidance, Mappoint and Navmii).

...ken...

Ray:
Chalk up another request for this feature. I'm using S&T to plan a long motorcycle trip and it would be very nice to be able to reset the fuel counter.
There are places in the Western US where you have to plan your fuel stops, even with a motorcycle with a 200 mile range.
The ability to reset the fuel odometer would make S&T much more usable.

It is interesting to here about the RV use of wanting the fuel counter to be reset at a stop. I use Microsoft Streets and Trips to plan trips on my motorcycle. I may cover up to 1500 miles in a day and the only way to do that efficiently is to know exactly where to stop for gas. I spend a lot of time researching gas stations online (Google, Yahoo, S&T, etc.). I don't use Streets & Trips for navigation while I'm riding. So it would be nice when I lay down a route that when S&T calculates where I need gas that I can tell it where I got gas.

I guess my point is why would you have a feature that tells you when you need gas if you can't tell it where you got gas.

I realize most people don't drive like this and have more flexibility to search for gas because they aren't on a timeline and have a pretty big reserve for fuel. But if you have specific needs when it comes to fuel or refueling (RV or motorcycle or E85 for that matter) then it would be nice to have the feature of resetting the trip/fuel mileage counter.

I also realize that a lot of people are using S&T as a realtime GPS unit which is a great feature but wasn't it's intended use when it was first launched. It was used for planning trips. Why can't it be good for both instead of putting all the focus on the GPS part. Some people here are asking "Why would you want to do that?" "Why can't you do it like we all do it?" to that I would say "Why do you want a full blown GPS in your laptop when they have device that already do that?". But I don't say that because we all have different needs. S&T was trip planning software first and then a GPS. We all have different uses and adding one checkbox for refueling seems like a pretty tame request. If you don't use the fueling feature then don't try to convince someone that they don't need it either.

Curt

Curt:
Sounds like you're doing some IBA rides?
My upcoming trip will be an SS2000 followed by an SS3000. I plotted out my fuel stops for the SS2000 using the distance tool and the Find function in MapSource. Very laborious.

I was psyched when I got the trial version of S&T - it is much faster than MapSource and thought that the feature to recommend fuel stops would be great. Until I found out that it wasn't interactive.

I was completely dumbfounded that it didn't recalc fuel stops. The irony is that if you create a new waypoint for a gas station, it recalcs the route so it would seem to make sense that it should recalc the distance to the next fuel stop, right?
Agreed - there's no value in trying to convince people that they don't need a feature. I think it's constructive to offer a work around (I wish there was one for this problem) but not to convince someone that they don't need a something like this.
My take on software (having been writing software for almost 20 years) is that it's either a feature or a bug. It would be really hard to defend this lack of functionality.

Hopefully someone in Microsoft will champion this feature. Or maybe someone in Microsoft will try to use S&T for a long distance ride and get so frustrated that they add it. That would be nice!

I use S&T both as a planner and GPS while driving. I personally do not like features that tell me when to fuel up or end my day (they just clutter my map, IMHOP), as I do not follow the same pattern on a day to day basis. I realize that there are ways to work around these features, but I would much prefer to be able to shut them off and on at will. I am a pretty basic guy, my motto KISS.

Marvin:
"Excellent point, Ken. When we go on a long family trip, we also do like to stop every couple of hours to rest a little, etc. That is the reason I have never fully understood the reasons(s) behind people bringing up this topic of resetting fuel in Streets & Trips.

Different people use software differently. We all have our own preferences. I'm sure there must be a valid and very good reason for people asking for a way to reset fuel in Streets & Trips after they refuel, as I have heard this request numerous times on numerous forums and groups."
Emphasis on the last paragraph - a lot of people are asking for that feature so there's probably a good reason.
You're right!
That feature is very valuable for folks who have to plan their route. If you're just driving cross country or don't have a specific set of timelines, there's no particular reason to be able to reset the fuel odometer.
Many people want to do long distance motorcycle rides, the shortest of which is 1,000 miles in 24 hours. An endeavor like that goes better with planning. Typically, we plan all of our gas stops and put them in our GPS as waypoints.
What I'd like to see in S&T is the ability to indicate that a waypoint is a surrogate for a "gas alert" in the directions window. When I designate it as a surrogate, it deletes the auto-generated warning, it uses my waypoint, and recalcs the distance to the next fuel stop.
That feature would save a lot of time doing route planning.
It's too bad S&T doesn't have that feature because, in many other aspects, it looks to be a very good piece of software at a very reasonable price.

"I use S&T both as a planner and GPS while driving. I personally do not like features that tell me when to fuel up or end my day (they just clutter my map, IMHOP), as I do not follow the same pattern on a day to day basis. I realize that there are ways to work around these features, but I would much prefer to be able to shut them off and on at will. I am a pretty basic guy, my motto KISS."
I understand that completely and that's a configuration issue. If you don't want a feature, you should be able to shut it off.
In S&T, just open Route > Route options > Fuel and uncheck the checkbox that says "Include refuel warnings in driving directions". Won't that take care of the problem?

I liked the recent suggestion in the Wish List forum http://www.laptopgpsworld.com/wish-list that the fuel feature could work the same way as the existing feature that suggests Night Stops:

Agreed.

Yes, you are correct, you can turn off the fuel warnings, my bad. I guess I was referring more to the end of day warnings, where you have to remember to set your driving times from 12am to 12am each time you make a new route. Anyway, along with the many improvements that come out with new programs there are also a bunch of new features, not all of which one may want to use. I would like to have the option of turning off whatever I don't like.

Don't get me wrong, I love S&T and use it all of the time. I am an RVer and am on the road at least 6 mos. per year. I do use a NUVI for local use, re: finding the local Wal Mart, etc., but S&T is my planner and travel GPS.

"I am an RVer and am on the road at least 6 mos. per year."
That sounds like a pretty good schedule to me.

I ride a bike from time to time but mostly drive a desk!

Just to clarify how I would use the fuel warning. I would do my planning like this:

1. Set the fuel counter to go 800 miles.
2. Start planning my stops
3. When I see in the route a fuel warning, I know that I want to plan a stop nearby
4. Would then enter that as a stop in the route, and I would reset the counter at that point.

Then repeat 2-4 as needed. With a big RV, and only wanting to use truck stops, being able to know that I'm around as far as I want to travel without a stop, would just be helpful in pre-planning those stops.

But, perhaps better said, a fuel warning that bugs me every 800 miles, regardless of where I fueled is just worthless. Currently it's tied to the start of your trip, and reminds you every 800 miles (or whatever you're set to). It is only valid at the start of your trip, and that's assuming you're full at the trip start!

Ray