We need a GPS solution for our helicopter program. We use our helicopter to search for missing kids and Alzheimer patients in a metro-city area.

We used to use a Garmin nRoute software, but the GPS position lagged too badly and it was pretty bulky. Then we went to the Garmin 7000 series that mounts on the cyclic. That works well enough, except the street labels turn on and off, depending on our direction of travel. For us to zoom in close enough, we can only see one or two blocks on the screen, and we're sometimes three to four blocks offset, which when we zoom-out we lose even more street labels. That doesn't work, especially when we're trying to talk ground patrol cars or firetrucks through residential streets onto a possible locate of our subject (They can see the street signs, we cannot and must rely on the G7000).

So, we're revisiting the laptop idea and are thinking the Garmin Mobile PC might be the best software. However, it looks like it's the same software driving the G7000.

Will the street labels turn on and off depending on direction of travel, using Garmin Mobile PC (Any hope of over-riding this setting)?
Is there any way to make it update more than once per second and hold the aircraft in the center of the screen, instead of lagging (jerking) again making reading street labels impossible to read?

Yes, they do make commercially available software, specifically for law enforcement applications, but it costs $25 - $40k just for the software and laptop... With the budget situation as it is, there's no money for that... Again, any help would be appreciated.

I'm on the road right now with a lousy internet connection so I'm going from memory and keeping it short. I believe Mobile PC is one of the few nav programs that will work properly with a receiver that is refreshing faster than 1Hz (once per second).

The i.Trek M7 Bluetooth receiver will refresh at up to 5Hz. I don't know if that's fast enough or not. I'm not sure what other models are out there with faster than the common 1Hz update. I seem to recall there may be some that update as fast as 10Hz.

...ken...

I am not familiar with a G7000. If you mean the 7" (diagonal) Garmin 7200, one of the problems with it is low pixel count (480x234) for the screen size. Any netbook would have more than 4 times the pixels in a screen slightly larger. The problem is will the laptop you use be sunlight readable.

Ken has pointed out in another thread that increasing the GPS data refresh rate does not necessarily equate to better accuracy. At helicopter speeds there would be an advantage but while hovering it could still be subject to movement. I would think a larger display size and resolution would be the best place to start. Do you have a particular laptop in mind?

BTW, did you try changing your existing unit to North up to see if that reduced the appearance/ dissappearance of street names?

Terry

Thanks Ken, I'll research something in the 5 - 10 hz range for receiver sounds like the GMPC might be the right software. Yes Terry, the 7000 I'm referring to is the Garmin 7200 (sorry, didn't have the unit in front of me). As far as laptop, I'm probably going with a panasonic 'toughbook' that will 'video-out' to my 12.1" Avalex daylight readable & NVG compliant video monitor mounted in the helo. The monitor mounted in the helo has multiple VGA inputs, so one will be for the FLIR, then my hope is the other can be used for mapping and I can toggle between the two, or split, depending on what we're doing.... So, just to confirm, the higher refersh receiver will be more accurate in motion, but may be less accurate in the hover? (We usually fly now slower than 20 - 30 kts and very rarely pull into a hover for what we're doing...) Thanks again for your help, I think I'm going to pursue this...

The higher refresh rate will not be less accurate but may not assist in keeping the display stationary as you required.

Terry

Rono, welcome to Laptop GPS World. Most of these higher-refresh-rate GPS receivers come with software utility that lets you set your preferred refresh rate. You will be able to set the unit to run at 1Hz, 2Hz, 3Hz, 4Hz, etc.

If you do give it a try, please do let us know how it works out for you.

Hi,

I currently writing some helicopter 3D GPS software. Pls let me know what functionality you would want and I'll let you have the software for free. To view previous software I've produced you can visit http://www.i-zone-3.com/buy.htm

I can also design specialist electronics to go with it - 3 axis gyros, accelerometers, compass..

Updates will be fast upto 100Hz on some designs.

Thx

rono, fwiw, i have mappoint 2009 and w/ a scale of 1/2MI it does show just about all the streets, even the rather small ones. i am pretty sure that streets and trips 2009 uses the same basic setup as mappoint, just that mappoint allows a lot more data mapping.

if you are doing 20-30kts i think this would be good for you, and i have never had it fail on me. you may want to check out the trial of street and trips too. only bad thing is is that i believe they are both setup to take 1Hz gps samples, but at the speed you say you are going, that shouldn't be an issue.

what is the resolution of the monitor you are connecting into?

Hi all, I've been offline for some time (holidays, travel, et-al). Just to update everyone, we got sidetracked on this project with a lot of other stuff (We've been using the 7000 series Nuvi and that's worked okay to back-up the map).

Our laptop is now being used as a MDT (Mobile Data Terminal) to connect to dispatch for updates, et-al. That took some doing, but we've got it integrated and it seems to be working. Now that's done, we're back to solving our mapping problem.

I bought the Garmin software and purchased an iTrek M7, however I can't get the M7 to connect to the computer (want to use the USB). Went to iTrek site and looks like the site is down, and read on another forum that the itrek M7 is discontinued. If the part is defective, looks like no hope. That said, any other comparable receivers that are faster than 1 hz? I think 5hz is what we need and I know that Garmin Mobile PC will work that quickly. The monitor we use is 800x600.

Thanks all, I'll do a better job keeping you posted on this project, I'm near the end (i hope)!!!

How do you know the M7 isn't connecting to the computer? Symptoms?

What do you need to get it going? USB Drivers (XP and Vista)? User manual? Configuration tool? I have them all.

...ken...

The iTrek will not communicate with its configuration tool over Bluetooth. You must use USB.

Terry

Terry thanks, i have it plugged into the USB; but still no go.

Symptom: When I power on the computer, i get the small pop-up in the lower left, saying the computer has found the iTrek M7; however when I go to Garmin Mobile PC, no GPS receiver; so I have it search for a receiver and it cannot find it.

The receiver itself flashes orange, indicating it has a satellite fix; but when i go to the iTrek software there's no satellite signal strength. I've messed with adjusting the different com ports, but honestly folks, everything else on the command screen could just as well be "Mandarin" because it makes no sense to me...the manual also does nothing to decode any of that jibberish either (seems more interested in telling you how to Bluetooth connect it to your smartphone)...ok, sorry for the rant, just frustrated and no offense to you folks that do understand that...

I admin there's a good possibility that this is an 'operator induced failure'...but I need the system to work by tomorrow (We have the aircraft scheduled to be available for installing the laptop, et-al).

So, for hard symptoms here's what I've got:
Mobile PC cannot find it
I know the computer 'sees' the GPS receiver as it states so on start-up
I don't know which com-port its on, and none of the software indicate its working

Any ideas, I'm open to anything (Including the possibility that something simple is not turned 'on' which is probably very likely)

Thanks all,

Ron

Garmin Mobile PC will not work with the iTrek M7 over USB as the data rate (115,200 bps) exceeds Mobile Pc limits. Use Bluetooth!

What I was saying is that to use the configuration tool to set the refresh rate of the iTrek M7, you must be connected by USB. The USB - serial driver should tell you what COM port to look at. Set the config tool to look at that port. Once the refresh rate is set as you want, it will work via BT with Mobile PC.

You can determine the COM port by checking in Windows Device Manager.

Terry

Thanks Terry,

Two follow-up questions:

#1- I don't know that the computer has bluetooth enabled (Gov't laptop, so I need their IT person to activate it); so if that's not possible, how fast will it work over the USB cable (If I have to leave it connected)?

#2- How do I know which COM port to use? The iTrek software command screen gives me a choice of like 13, where do I look for which com port is active?

Thanks again for your help on this.

To access Device Manager in XP;
Start-Control Panel-Performance and Maintenance-System. Choose the Hardware tab and click the Device Manager button.

Click on the plus sign next to Ports(COM&LPT) to expand that section.

Terry

Attached Images

Device Manager.jpg (305.5 KB)

You can not change the data rate over USB. It is fixed at 115,200 and Mobile PC will not support that rate. From my testing Mobile PC can support 38,400 bps. If you can't use Bluetooth, you can not use the iTrek M7 with Mobile PC!

The only other GPS I have that supports 5 Hz refresh is a qStarz BT-Q890. It also uses the MTK chipset and is fixed at 115,200 bps over USB so is not suitable for Mobile PC. Using Bluetooth, it works fine.

Terry

OK, Disregard question #2, I found the Com Port using the driver settings page; and confirmed that Bluetooth is disabled on this machine.

If you can't use Bluetooth, Mobile PC will not work with the iTrek M7.

Terry

Thanks again Terry, looks like the old iTrek M7 won't work...is there any other USB receiver (Or I have a serial port) that refreshes greater than 1 hz that would work on MobilePC?

If baud rate is preventing a USB GPS receiver from working with GPS software, you can use GpsGate. GpsGate will act as a baud rate converter. It will adjust to what ever baud rate your software requires.

Gpsgate has a 14 day trial. You can test it if it works to your satisfaction.

Good suggestion Marvin. I never tried that with the 5 Hz option as I had Bluetooth. But if GPS Gate reduces the data rate to 4800, the higher refresh would not work. I'll have to test that!

Terry

Marvin is correct. Specifically, I have used GPSGate to connect my M7 to Mobile PC with a USB connection. It still puts through the full 5Hz update rate if you set the M7 refresh rate to that.

...ken...

I will agree as far as I could test. Setup was a snap and Mobile PC see the GPS Gate output. The bars on the satellite page appear to be changing faster than once a second so it looks like it works fine.

Terry

Terry, you can really see the faster refresh rate working on the road. Especially if you have "snap to road" set. You might remember that I reported in previous testing that I really don't like the 5Hz refresh for road navigation because it shows up as a lot of "jitter" on the vehicle icon?

If you are driving down a road and your vehicle location, as reported by the GPS, is consistently off the road a bit, the software has to place the icon and then snap it back to the road. This shows up as constant sideways jitter. It's not bothersome at a 1Hz refresh rate because the forward motion is much greater than the sideways motion to snap to the road. But with 5Hz refresh, the forward motion isn't much more than the sideways motion so it gets rather annoying.

But 5Hz definitely works through GPSGate (works fine in Mobile PC and iGuidance and Street Atlas but not so much in Streets&Trips).

In the air or any other offroad situation it's not an issue because you don't want it snapping to roads anyway. (rono, if you haven't already found it, it's in Settings > Map > Show Location > At GPS Location.)

...ken...

I am painfully aware of that thread, Ken. I just didn't realize (or had forgotten) you used a USB connection to the M7 for your tests.

terry

OK, it seems the gods are truly against my success here...GPSGate works perfectly, I created a 'garmin emulator' connection, but my Mobile PC still can't find a receiver (And i Know it's working correctly). ON the input side, I found and selected the com port (GPS Gate confirmed it was working properly); on the output side I created a separate 'garmin emulator' connection; selected a virtual com port from the drop-down list. I tried to get Garmin Mobile PC to find a sattelite and it still won't do it. I selected USB on the Mobile PC side, can't ever find a sattelite receiver; should I do a serial port search and try to match the com ports? What am I doing wrong?? Believe it or not, I'm a reasonably intelligent guy, or at least I like to think so, but maybe I'm not...my wife could be right after all these years...I've got to stay positive, can't think like that...

Mobile PC does not require a 'Garmin Emulator'. It works fine with NMEA outputs. Just do a standard Wizard thing with GPS Gate and it will create several COM ports. Mobile PC will find one of them and work fine.

*EDIT* COM means serial. Don't second guess these programs!

Terry

I tried to do the standard wizard, but the wizard can't even find my GPS receiver...however, if I go to settings and manually select the com port, it works and GpsGate states that it's receiving accurate GPS info...

If GPS Gate is showing a green indicator in the notification bar, it is happy with your input setting. Make sure you have allowed GPS Gate to set up at least one virtual COM port on the output tab.

*Make sure Mobile PC is the latest version (5.00.60) as some older versions do not work with GPS Gate.*

Let Mobile PC scan for a GPS serial port (not USB) and it should find the GPS Gate output COM port.

Terry

The version of Mobile PC is listed in Settings - About.

Latest version is here:

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/store/downloadsUpdates.jsp?product=010-11018-00&cID=139&pID=13484

Terry

Terry, Ken, et-al...it works...finally, it works! I had to upload the latest 'patch' for Garmin Mobile PC from the Garmin site, but I think that was the hang-up...It is strange that the GpsGate won't pickup my receiver, however when I set up a com port, Mobile PC immediately picked it up, and I'm "Ready to Navigate"...THANK YOU for your help...I would've ended up selling this i.Trek on ebay (If it survived the 'drop-kick' it was about to get this morning)...thanks again!

Now, next step, install this mess in the aircraft tomorrow...ahhh, going to be a long day I can feel it! Oh well, success tonight!

Ron

Glad it's working, rono. Now the secret is to think through what you've done and filter it in your mind. Forget the gazillion things that did not work and just focus on the small number of things that worked. If you can do that, the next installation should be simpler than you're expecting it to be.

The problem with these marathon monster nightmare setups is there are so many things that did not work it all seems overwhelming, when, in fact, the parts needed to make it work are actually few and fairly simple.

Install Mobile PC.

Update it to the latest version.

Install GPSGate.

Connect receiver and turn it on.

Run and Setup GPSGate.

When the GPSGate icon goes green, Run Mobile PC.

Nuthin' to it.

...ken...

Ron, you are right about the GPSGate wizard not finding the iTrek on USB. This is probably because the wizard only searches for 4800bps devices and the iTrek is 115,200 on USB. Your manual approach is the correct solution.

Terry

Attached Images

GPSGate Wizard.jpg (141.9 KB)

Thanks to all of you for the help! We used it and everything worked properly in the aircraft. The iTrek with the higher refresh rate did exactly what we were hoping in giving us a very accurate picture of addresses and where we were. The larger screen gave us the screen resolution so we could see more streets, bottom line, it did everything I was hoping...Wanted to thank all of you that walked me through this 'valley of the shadow of death'...Cheers!