Does anyone know if Microsoft Streets and Trips 2010 still allows you to install it on 3 PC's.
Thanks
Bob

I think the previous version allows 2 PC, a desktop and a laptop for the same owner (and not three pc). But somebody can correct me if i am wrong...

The policy in S&T is the same as in previous versions. One "licensed device," plus an additional "portable device."

This question comes up every year:

http://www.laptopgpsworld.com/152-possible-put-ms-streets-trips-two-my-computers

http://www.laptopgpsworld.com/933-streets-trips-2009-how-many-installations-allowed

The EULA can be accessed through Help-About, then "Microsoft software license terms."

Just curious, what happens if you replace your laptop or PC?

You can call in after the activation limit is reached.

I am not sure a two-PC limit is fair any longer in view of the presence now of ultra micro PCs.

For instance, I bought a Viliv S5 (a UMPC) over the summer principally for on-the-road navigating with Microsoft Streets and Trips. I tend to create my routes on my home PC with its 24" inch monitor and internet connection and then transfer the file to the UMPC before the trip. So far, so good.

The problem now is that if I go on a multi-day trip, I may need to make day-to-day adjustments. In the past when I was using a laptop on the road, it was no problem to make those adjustments. However, the UMPC is not ideal for major route alterations due to its small screen. Therefore, the ideal situation would be to use the UMPC for real-time navigating and keep the laptop in the trunk until and unless I needed to re-route over night in the motel room, when I would press the laptop into service.

Therefore, I ideally require licenses for THREE PCs: the desktop, the laptop and the UMPC. It is still only me using it and using only one at a time. I think it is within the spirit of the licensing philosophy but also realistically applied in view of the current hardware technology available to allow three installations to the same licensee.

What do you think?

I still think iNav's approach with iGuidance is the most enlightened. You can install it on as many PCs as you wish. You can only activate it on one. But you can shift the activation between them as often as you want and it's as easy as can be.

An activation wizard gets installed along with the program. Whenever you want to shift the activation you run the activation wizard on the PC that's activated, deactivate it, run the activation wizard on the PC you want to activate and Presto! you're in business on that one.

I know .... the greedy amongst us are never satisfied and it would be nice to still have two simultaneous activations that you can shift around. But until that happens I have to give a huge WayTaGo!!! to iNav's activation approach.

...ken...

Ken, the approach you describe is fine , I am sure, in many applications. However, I don't think it is ideal for S&T. I would not want to be going through the activation drill every time I shifted from PC to UMPC (or laptop) and then back again. This might easily be daily, so that would be two activations a day - that does not appeal.

Just my 2 cents.

I prefer actually the actual S&T license to install on a desktop and laptop. This is all most people would ever need. Actually i think this is a very good license way. Most of the software should follow this way to allow a desktop and laptop. This keep a customer from buying two licenses when only one would be used at a time by the same customer... Everybody these days has a desktop and a form of portable device.

I wouldn't want to rely at all on internet to switch the license from my desktop to my laptop everytime i am using it. It could happen very often and could be very annoying .

There is some confusion forming in this discussion. From my experience, iGuidance does allow 2 intallations. The flexibility is in moving either of those licenses to another device. I have it on the HP tablet and I moved the 2nd license from my UMPC to my mini-ITX for testing purposes.

With the previous version (v4), this was also the case. However, I had used a USB key to move the license with that version. For whatever reason, that approach did not work with my copy of 2009. I used the internet deactivate/ activate approach with no issues.

Terry

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I think all of these approaches to switching the license between devices and requiring on-line registration or activation are going in the wrong direction.

I understand the software developers’ objective of keeping people from pirating the software, but this reminds me of the bad old days of DOS when software was distributed on floppy disks and the floppy had to be in the drive while the program was running, even if the program was installed on the hard drive. The distributors made some intentional errors on the floppies so that they could not be duplicated (easily).

It was a real hassle keeping track of the original disk and inserting it in the drive every time the user wanted to run that program, not to mention the fact that the drive was no longer available for other applications or purposes while that application was running.

There was a real push in the user community, led as I recall by PC Magazine, to remove the copy restrictions on the floppy disk and the requirement that it be in the drive to run the program. A couple of the writers at PC Magazine argued that removing the hassles of the floppy disk would actually increase the sales of the software. A couple of software manufacturers tried that, and it actually did increase sales.

I also remember when a single user license for a COBOL compiler cost $5,000, and was valid for only one computer at one site. But software had a very narrow market in those days. Such is not the case now. Look, for example, at the huge market for Streets & Trips. Would that market increase or decrease if the installation process was simplified to eliminate the need for on-line registration and activation of the program? The history suggests that it might increase.

What was the last version of Streets & Trips that could be purchased over the counter and installed and used with no on-line or phone activation? As I recall, that might have been S&T 2007. Did sales increase or decrease with S&T 2008? What was the trend before on-line activation was adopted? Did the hassles involved help or hinder sales?

Of course, added product features might affect sales enough to hide any influence of the activation problems.

I just believe that most computer users and software customers are honest enough that they will pay for software, rather than pirating it. The newest version of S&T is available for slightly under $40, and I believe that most potential users will pay that much for a known good copy, rather than get a pirate copy from a buddy or on the Internet and risk a virus or such.

Jim M.

For me it is a simple matter of logistics.

I have FIVE computers I use in my business. I am the owner/operator of a tow truck. ONE man, ONE truck. No employees.

(1) copy of S&T 20##

When I am in my truck, the PC is usually up and running. Some calls for a tow, and it is no problem to calculate the tow (starting and ending points, loaded miles and ETA, etc.) because S&T is already up and running.

(2) copies of S&T 20## ??

When I am in my home, I am on one of two main computers I use. One OR the other is booted up at any time, sometimes both, sometimes neither. When someone calls for a tow, I want S&T to be on THAT computer that is running so I can quickly open S&T, do the calculations and quote the tow, as well as head out and MAKE MONEY. Therefore, the 2-computer limit FORCES me to buy two copies of S&T, even though I am the ONLY person who uses the cop(ies) I buy, so that S&T is on both main computers.

Lets say the day is over, and I am getting some sleep. I have a PC in my bedroom that is always running, so when someone calls, I don't have to get up and BOOT UP one of the main computers in another part of the house. I can use the bedroom PC that is already running to quote the tow, and go back to sleep if they decline. So far, so good. FOUR computers, TWO copies of S&T.

(3) copies of S&T 20## !!!

As with ALL computers, sometimes they just don't want to cooperate. The truck PC works MOST of the time, but every now and then, it boots up and CANNOT find the GPS antenna, or it won't boot at all, because of some error that I cannot troubleshoot while I am racing to a response-time-critical tow. That is when I will reach for my LENOVO Notebook computer as my backup. I boot up THAT computer, plug in the GPS antenna and head out.

Microsoft's strict 2-computer policy has forced me to get by with only my truck PC, leaving the notebook at home unless I pay the extortion fee of the purchase price of YET ANOTHER copy of S&T every year so that I can reliably respond to calls for roadside assistance, and all for the sin of using computers that are not 100% reliable.

Since Microsoft insists on a 2-computer per registration policy, and I NEED a backup GPS option in my truck, I have invested in a Garmin NUVI 265, which now has become my PRIMARY GPS routing device, since it boots instantly, it is faster to find my destination, and it has a lot of great features that allow me to blast out of my driveway toward my customer while my truck PC is still booting up, starting S&T and trying to find the GPS antenna.

As further protection against a costly delay, I also purchase the newest edition of DeLorme Street Atlas which is also installed on my truck PC, just in case S&T takes a trip to Oz when I need it most. I also have AT&T USB Broadband Internet in my truck, so if all else fails, I can use the Google maps to find my customer.

Don't get me wrong. I love S&T! I just want to be able to buy ONE COPY and use it on as many computer as *I* need in order to function efficiently. If that means I log on and pay another $20 per computer installed, SO BE IT. If I need it on ten computers, the price should be the $39 "first copy" price (with the expense of the actual disc, the packaging, the colorful wrapper and the instruction sheet) and another $180.00 for the 9 additional computers that cost Microsoft NOTHING in production of anything physical. $20.00 for permission to install EXISTING DATA onto another of my computers is reasonable.

Believe me, Microsoft! I have more important things to do with my life than pirate a silly program that is navigationally outdated 2 months after it is purchased! I know that in small town America, the addition of a new highway on ramp make the papers and the whole town turns out with cameras, but here in southern Commiefornia, a new on ramp can pop up during my LUNCH BREAK. Sink holes occur. Earthquakes knock down bridges! Cops shut down entire freeways because some distrught woman is having a bad hair day! Available roads change quickly out here!

PLEASE give me the flexibility of multiple installations without worrying about my little one-man towing service threatening the future of your MEGA-BILLION dollar software company!

I guess what I should have said is, "If we MUST have an activation procedure, my vote is for the iGuidance approach." Of course I would rather not have to deal with it at all.

...ken...

bikerjoe, thanks for your real world and real user description of the problem someone faces in trying to use S&T when your business requires that you move around, including moving from one computer to another during the day. I think most computer users now have more than one computer, a desktop and a laptop. Many users have more than two but I, for one, can’t use more than one computer at a time. So I want the software I have bought and paid for on the one computer I want to use, whenever I want to use it, just like bikerjoe.

Can any long-time user of S&T tell me for sure whether or not S&T 2007 could be installed and run on a computer WITHOUT any Internet activation or phone activation? If I wanted to install it on a laptop computer in the middle of the boonies without Internet access or phone service, can I activate it and not have it expire at an inconvenient time?

I really want a version of the software that can be installed without it "pulling an ET", and "calling home."

Any information on this point is welcome!

Thanks.

Jim M.

I'm probably going to get tomatoes or bricks thrown at me but I can't get terribly sympathetic about a business that can write off the expense having to cough up the grand sum of around 30 bucks for an extra copy for convenience. I realize that there are small businesses that don't have lots of coin to throw around, but come on, it's cheap like dirt and it's a legitimate business expense. Can't hardly get an oil change for that price.

If you need four or six tires on the truck you don't complain because the tire manufacturer makes you buy one for each wheel. And they're a heckuva lot more expensive than a copy of Streets.

...ken...

LOL! No tomatoes or bricks, Ken! That makes perfect sense.

However, the major part of my objection is not the additional $40. I just don’t like having to log in to Microsoft to "activate" the program. I figure it’s no business of Microsoft where I am and on what computer I am running a piece of software that I paid for. I have encountered too much software of other kinds that wants to "call home" too often.

Do you know if S&T 2007 requires such an activation?

Jim M.

Hi Jim,

I can sympathize and relate to the "ET call home" thing. I've had programs lose their activation on me in inconvenient situations and it really irritates me. I don't care if it's a $500 or $5 program, that's not the way to treat your customers.

My first exposure to Streets is the 2008 version so I can't help with the question of older versions activation requirements.

...ken...

I have to agree with Ken on that one. If the program is used in your business, you probably write it off anyway. And S&T is cheap!!

If it is making money for you, buy a second or third copy. If not, why use it at all.

Terry

The tires also last a lot Longer than the yearly issuance of S&T.

The big problem with your position is that in order for a business to "write off" the cost of things that are purchased FOR the business, such as tires and navigation software, the business needs to make a profit. Most small businesses are just squeaking by, and many are going under because it is so difficult to make a profit.

As for the "grand sum" of $30.00 for an extra copy, that sounds like nothing when you paint it as if that is the only expense. You seem to think that small businesses have an extra fifty grand sitting in a bank account that they just don't want to touch. I won't go into detail about the cost of running a towing service, but suffice it to say that after FIVE years of business, I had my first profitable year in 2003. My profit for a year of 24-hour roadside assistance? $12.65. The following year, my Ford F-450 wore out, so I had to finance a new Dodge Sprinter (cab and chassis) and build the bed for it myself, which put me out of service for five months. All that time I wasn't taking in money, but the $427 monthly payments came due on the first of each month anyway.

I am now considering whether I want to funnel part of my gross receipts into the new 2010 version. You see, my truck is in need of a new transmission. I'll have to find a way to cough up the "grand sum" of $5,200.00, an expense for which I don't have the first dollar set aside to date.

No Ken, you DON'T realize.

My truck takes 10 quarts of Mobil-1 0W-30 synthetic oil and a filter. My oil changes come in at a cool $100 each. Oh, for that price, I have to change it myself.

Actually I do. I have friends and family who have small businesses (greenhouse, yard care, computer consulting, small engine repair, motorcycle shop, care home, home renovations) and also who farm, which is the same thing only much worse. I have spent hours listening to exactly the same complaints as you've just mentioned and many that would probably make even you cringe.

I've also helped them set up computer software and troubleshoot computer problems (for free, even though my normal fee for such service would be considerable) as I listened to still more complaints.

So I DO realize. And I thought about it before I wrote that.

But....

Precisely my point. That hundred bucks is for a disposable item. You're complaining about thirty bucks for a more durable item (no way your oil changes last you a year).

You seem to expect Microsoft or other software suppliers to allow you to use one purchased copy for multiple machines. It seems to me they're already pretty generous allowing it on at least two machines. You can't do THAT with your tires or your oil changes. Why do you think it's okay to expect it from inexpensive software?

It may not be obvious but I've had this same discussion before, many times, with the above mentioned friends and family. Some understood. Some didn't. That's okay.

I don't fault you for trying. We always need to squeeze a dollar for the most we can get from it. I understand that. I don't mind someone haggling for the best deal they can get. I just don't have a lot of sympathy for the complaints in this particular situation where you're already getting two simultaneous installations for the price of one copy. That sounds like a heckuva a deal to me, considering the price!

...ken...

Indeed, occasionally it is worth reminding how inexpensive Microsoft Streets and Trips is. We get maps of the whole USA, Canada, Mexico, and more, plus a lot of features, for less then $40.

A couple of days ago I came across a piece of software capable of performing just one simple function for this website. It consisted of one single downloadable .php file only 28 KB small. The fellow who wrote the thing charges $57.00 for a single license. I wanted it, and I didn't hesitate to pay it.

$40 for Streets & Trips is more than reasonable.

Joe, could you live with fewer computers? For the past year or so, I have been using my 12" convertible laptop/tablet (HP tx2000) exclusively for all my needs. I no longer use my desktop PC. Could you take 1 (one) laptop with you everywhere you need it (truck, bedroom, kitchen, etc.). Just a suggestion.

No, because moving one laptop from a truck to a home office to a bedroom to ... to ... is a BIG hassle. A tow truck is not a Lexus. I can't just set a laptop on the seat next to me and navigate my way down the road. The truck bounces and bangs around, as EVERY truck does, so the laptop would have to be secured each time it is put into the truck. Beyond that, when I pick up the person(s) who (is/are) standing there next to the disabled vehicle I am towing, what then? Ask the customer to hold the laptop on his lap and keep the screen facing me? LOL!

Since the Star Trek dilithium crystals that would run a laptop indefinitely on a single charge have yet to be released to the retail market, the movement of a laptop means moving the power supply, the external keyboard (I'm not a touch typist, and I can't stand the new laptops with the keyboard set back,) the trackball, (laptop mouse pads and "joysticks" are completely useless with S&T) the USB devices such as the thumb drive that holds my invoices, and more. The laptop must be plugged in wherever it is, if it is to keep running for any length of time, and lets not forget that the AT&T broadband Internet access must also be moved, along with the 6' USB cable that allows it to extend to the sun roof where it gets the best signal. Now, I dare say that moving a single laptop around to circumvent the hassle of multiple copies of a piece of software would:

1. become a deal breaker for me, which means I wouldn't buy it AT ALL. I don't buy three copies of S&T because I want to. I buy three copies because I MUST.

2. Moving a laptop around that much, plugging things in and out, the "drop factor" and the constant opening and closing of the lid means the laptop would have a short life expectancy, making the software that forces one to drag a laptop around very expensive as broken laptops are replaced. Remember. We're not talking about some Berkeley graduate in loafers and dockers surfing the net at a Starbucks. We're talking about a towing service. When was the last time you saw a towing operator arrive in a tuxedo? It is a rough, DIRTY business and few laptops would survive more than a couple of months.

3. A laptop in a vehicle is an invitation to a smash-and-grab. My PC is permanently mounted in my truck, out of sight. I often leave it running (on dual batteries and a power inverter) while I am in a store or a bank, and with the monitor off, no one even knows it is there. You can't do that with a laptop that is hopping from here to there.

Now, lets consider one point that folks seem to be overlooking or ignoring.

The PURPOSE of restricting a copy of S&T to two computers is so someone won't load it up onto 50 computers that are being used SIMULTANEOUSLY by a crew of 50 employees for whatever purpose.

Since I am ONE MAN, I am the only person who will use MY copy of S&T, regardless of how many of my computers have my copy installed. I don't have employees, or a dispatch center, or even a chronically unemployed or handicapped friend who can sit at his home computer all day and all night (I'm a 24-hour service!) and respond to my calls for a quick quote on a tow. Believe me! I'd LOVE to have someone answer my calls from a nice, quiet land line in a residence or office, and calculate the tows for me, and process the credit cards, and take down all of the detailed directions and gate codes and special instructions and ... and .... It is very difficult to do while driving down a freeway with a keyboard on my lap. "Joe! Just pull over and ..." Yeah, yeah ... I love the word "Just." Just ask any tow truck driver about the cost of a delay in their response time. Ask 'em what "G.O.A." means, and what it costs the towing company each year. There isn't always a place to "just pull over" and even if there was, a tow truck, at least MY tow truck does not have rocket acceleration, so "just pulling over" for a call means a hairy traffic merging experience is in my future.

I don't mean to be short here, but I've been doing this for 12 years now. I have already experimented with many options including a Toshiba laptop (as you suggested), and I even purchased an iXplore X104 tablet PC, thinking that it would work. After a long field test proved moving a single computer from here to there to be worthless and annoyingly troublesome, I sold the x104 to a friend (at a loss I can't "write off") , and I now have what works BEST, even though it costs me the price of THREE copies of S&T each year, because Microsoft can't stomach the thought of one man using the software he purchased on any one of HIS computers, depending on the situation at the moment. It really irks me that Microsoft "just" assumes that if I have it on six (or 7 or 8) towers, laptops and notebooks, that automatically means I have the STAFF to enjoy the duplicity of the software. Hey Microsoft. I DON'T!

Joe, in the case of Streets & Trips I'm not sure if Microsoft is the one solely responsible for the software activation scheme. From what I've heard it is a Navteq's requirement that products based on Navteq's map data contain some form of security against unauthorized copying. I'm not aware of a single consumer Navteq-based product that doesn't employ some anti-piracy measure.

Thanks for the description of your equipment and how you use it in your business. You have perfected the system over the years, and I'm sure there may not be much room left for improvement any more. I just want to mention the versatility of my HP tx2000 (Terry uses it too, by the way). It can be used as a tablet PC or as a laptop. You could use it as a tablet in your truck. It wouldn't take more than 5 seconds to place it into a RAM mount. Since it would be used as a tablet PC, it would take very little space. You could use a USB external keyboard attached to your dashboard (just an idea). At home you could use it as a regular laptop. I bet this suggestion seems like a big compromise in comparison to what you are using at the moment, but perhaps it could have an advantage or two as well(?).

Almost everything contains intellectual property nowadays, even physical objects. For some reason, we don't balk at amortizing the R&D costs on physical objects by having to pay the licensing fee multiple times. But as soon as it comes to software, it suddenly becomes unfair. (Except when the software is hidden, as on an MP3 player or a DVD player or a camera. Then it becomes OK again. Even though it's really just software, like computer software.)

You want something to really be upset about? DVD players. Do you know why the cheapest DVD players cost about $30? Because the licensing fee to the DVD patent pool is a minimum of $14. If you buy five DVD players, you're esssentially buying five licenses. Why can't you just buy the license once, and then pay for the manufacturing cost of each DVD player after that?

The only reason we get upset about PC software is that it's so visible. You install it yourself, so you think that, obviously, you should get to install it somewhere else. But software is everywhere these days, mostly unseen. Almost any electronics gadget contains millions of lines of code. In every case, you're paying multiple license fees for multiple devices.

Ultimately, every licensing scheme will be "unfair" in some way, to somebody.

I never called it "unfair." I only said that since I am the only one using the software I purchase, it shouldn't mater how many different computers I install it on. Now, if I were to install it on different towers and then hire people to run a "1-800-Give-Me-Directions" hotline or something, with several employees in cubicles plotting routes and sending turn-by-turn directions to iPhones, I can plainly see how the company would want more money, and I would gladly pay it since the work itself is duplicated.

Ah well, I'll poke around the 2010 version to see if it is worth the additional $150+ for 3 copies, but you know, I wouldn't own a GARMIN unit right now, if Microsoft (or Navteq or whoever) would have just let me install S&T on one more computer! Now they have shot themselves in the foot, because the Garmin NUVI is quickly becoming my PRIMARY GPS device. I'm finding that I can get to my customer, get him to where he is going, and get home again without even booting up S&T. In fact, I can turn it on, poke in the destination address, throw my truck into gear and reach my local freeway on ramp before my PC even brings up the desktop. If garmin ever creates a unit with a 15" - 17" touchscreen, I may just dump S&T altogether.

bikerjoe,

There are lots of us who would like to be able to put software on multiple machines and only use one at a time. The problem is how to control that only one copy is being used at any time. If someone could come up with a cheap and foolproof way of doing that they could probably make a fortune licensing it to the biggies.

Garmin sort of has a solution to it. They have a PC program called Mobile PC. It operates sort of like if you took a Nuvi and stuffed it into a PC. The interface and features are very much like a Nuvi. If you buy the version that comes with a Garmin GPS receiver (choice of either USB or Bluetooth), you can install Mobile PC on multiple computers. The maps are licensed to the GPS receiver so you can only navigate with the copy of Mobile PC that is running on the computer that is connected to the GPS receiver. (Hope that made sense!)

There is a section of this forum on Mobile PC if you decide you're interested.

...ken...

This is amazing!

I have been lurking on this forum for a few months, but just recently joined. I need a laptop GPS system for travel, most of which involves either rental cars or riding with someone else in their car. Usually those people do not have built-in GPS in their cars. So, the laptop navigation is very handy.

Activation problems and unexpected de-activation are not acceptable when I am traveling on business. My time and the time of my clients are too valuable to risk a few hours fooling with a program that suddenly decides to de-activate itself. And our travels are frequently near "less than friendly" areas (minerals exploration and mining). A GPS which stops working at the wrong time can result in wandering into the wrong village, possibly never to be seen again!

I don’t mind paying the current price for software like Streets & Trips. Neither do my clients. But once we have purchased it, we expect it to be usable, whether we are in Arizona or Mexico or Guatemala.

Since posting on this thread, I did a lot of research on S&T deactivation, and found a lot of horror stories. One of the most informative threads was actually on this forum (which was not a surprise to me. The only surprise was that I hadn’t seen it before). That thread is:

http://www.laptopgpsworld.com/628-new-software-activation-microsoft-streets-trips-2009-a

The Streets & Trips 2008 edition had an even worse problem, "The Big Bug of 2008":

http://www.laptopgpsworld.com/166-streets-2008-stopping-after-5-6-weeks

In addition to the two threads that taoyue listed in post No. 3 to this thread, I believe the two threads listed above should be considered by anyone contemplating the purchase of any software that requires activation, and may therefore be subject to "deactivation" on its own volition.

I have access to Street Atlas 2008, and have ordered S&T with a USB receiver. But the S&T I ordered is the 2007 version. That doesn’t require activation and, as far as I know, isn’t subject to spontaneous de-activation. I may also download the 2010 trial version and try that.

For the present time, at least, I am going to continue to carry my Garmin. I may buy a new Garmin, like bikerjoe. If I have to do that to ensure that I have GPS when I need it, I don’t really see any reason to pay for the S&T also.

Comments?

bikerjoe, I was impressed with your explanation of your difficulties with S&T. Would you mind posting what kind of Garmin you are now using? Mine is too old, and I need to update, both for maps and for features. I respect your advice. Since such stand-alone GPS units are an alternative to laptop GPS programs, it seems appropriate to me to talk about them in the same breath as the laptop systems.

Jim M.

I think you are trying to make mountains out of molehills. I have never had any version of S&T deactivate spontaneously and finding several people who did hardly makes it rampant. There are other reasons for any software to fail and worrying about whether activation is a large issue will preclude you from many programs (including Windows).

Terry

Jim, the 2008 "bug" was specific to version 2008, and it was fixed and never heard of in version 2009. I used version 2008 extensively, and I have never experienced the "bug" myself, and most people never experienced it either.

It just doesn't happen that a person goes through the trouble of searching the Internet for a forum, and then registering on a forum, just to say they have installed and used a piece of software and they've experienced no issues. People usually search for forums like this one when they are experiencing some technical problems. So it is to be expected that a large portion of what you will find in forums like this one is discussions around problems. It's natural.

Jim, he's not talking about technical difficulties. Joe's issue is with the product licensing.

Yes, Marvin. I understand that. My issue is also with the product licensing. I don't object to the one desktop and one laptop allowed -- it is just the "activation" and de-activation. The problems with that were covered on your site in the two threads noted above, so I won't beat that dead horse any longer.

My travel needs are such that I can't risk having my software de-activated somewhere that I can't get Internet access or even phone access to re-activate it. If that is a realistic possibility, I need back-up. If I have to carry the back-up (my old Garmin), I might as well skip the S&T!

I just bought a copy of Streets & Trips 2007, and have installed it on my laptop and made the obligatory tour around the neighborhood to see how it works. I don't yet have any technical issues, except for an incompatibility between S&T 2007, which requires Windows Media Player 10, and my current setup, which is Media Player 11. I will get that ironed out, if I continue to use S&T 2007. Everything works except for the spoken instructions. I will fix that. Heck, the Garmin doesn't even TRY to give spoken instructions, so I am ahead of the game with what I already have working!

I was impressed with the performance of the GPS-500 receiver, but that is why I bought the 2007 version. 2010 is not yet available with a receiver, and the excellent and informative reviews on this site led me to prefer the older (GPS-500) receiver to the newer one, primarily because of antenna size. The 2007 version does not seem to be subject to the activation/de-activation problems. So my minor investment in 2007 is not wasted. The receiver alone is worth what I paid for it. No complaints here on that.

Next, I will download a copy of S&T 2010. If I decide to use that, I will keep the 2007 (on the hard drive) as a backup in case of some activation problem. I will also make sure that 2007 works wherever I may be, until I gain confidence in both the 2007 and the 2010. Maybe then I can leave the Garmin at home!

I know that neither S&T 2007 nor S&T 2010 gives driving guidance outside its described North America coverage, but exact Latitude and Longitude information alone can save many hours of searching in some cases. That, the Garmin gives me anywhere in the world. But I always have my laptop along, so why not get the same information from the laptop and leave the Garmin in the suitcase?

I want to thank all of the members of this site for their courteous and very helpful replies. This is the most helpful site on laptop GPS that I have found on the Internet. The amount of knowledge here, and the willingness to share, are astounding.

Jim M.

Jim, you don't have to carry a back up if your worry is that Streets & Trips 2010 suddenly stops working for some odd reason. Keep another version of S&T installed on your laptop as a back up. I always keep the most recent (for example 2010), and the previous (for example 2009) versions on my laptop. Over the years I don't recall being in a situation of needing to use an older version because a newer version failed. I just like to keep the two most recent versions for comparison purposes.
And it will most like stay that way, as for the vast majority of us it always does.

Well Jim, to be fair to Microsoft Streets & Trips, I won't go out of my way to promote a stand-alone unit by another manufacturer on this forum, but I will say that it is a FACT that S&T is FAR more capable, allowing fairly quick calculations from a starting to ending point, especially with my driver's door mounted Logitech trackball, which makes moving around the map fast and effortless.

S&T does many things the stand-alone units do not, and I would find it difficult to dump ANY PC-based GPS program completely, if only for the magnificent 19" LCD floor-mounted monitor that is the display in my truck (something the Tom-Toms and others can only envy!)

I do have DeLorme's offering as a backup on the PC, and the Garmin 265 unit gets me out of tight spots like when my PC suddenly decides to reboot for no Earthly reason while I am snaking my way through a complicated freeway interchange) but for the most part S&T is easier to use, at least up to the 2009 editions of each program. I hear that DeLorme 2010 is leaning toward a more user friendly set of screens that look eerily similar to those seen on the Garmin units. Still, I'm sticking with S&T as my main GPS option for now, begrudgingly paying the $150.00 price for the three copies I need to continue operations without making awkward and inconvenient changes.

bikerjoe, I would love to see a picture of that 19" screen used for navigation! For a few years I used 15" LCD monitor myself, and when it stopped working, and no local store sold small 15" monitors anymore, I was forced to replace it with a 17" monitor. I loved the upgrade ! But now I just use a 12" HP tx2000 (in a GMC 3500), which is no longer so spectacular.

Further to what tcassidy said, if you look closer at the "horror stories" you frequently will find behind them someone who also has other problems on their computer. The "deactivation" is usually associated with registry corruption of some sort.

The sorts of system problems that will cause a "spontaneous deactivation" will actually result even more frequently in some other problem on your system completely unrelated to your nav software. The only reason it's noticable in this situation is that it happens to be what you were looking for.

A dead battery on your handheld will have equally annoying consequences and is just as likely (eg. not a high probability in either case).

...ken...

I just installed S&T 2009 on my new laptop last night, after MS tech reps gave up on getting it to run on my old one. I had a problem getting S&T activated on the new one, it would not accept my product code. After talking with three different people at MS support, (the first two told me to get the product ID from the "About MS Streets and Trips" window.) This it turned out is not correct, the third guy, (in India) correctly told me to look at the yellow sticker on the inside of the box. Bingo! That worked.
I made a point of asking him what would have happened if I had been able to activate the program on the old laptop, then had to replace the computer. No hesitation, I would have had to purchase a second copy. Only two installation permitted, (I already have it in my desktop), no exceptions period!
So, if you have plans to replace a computer in the near future, stick with your old S&T version until you replace the computer. Also, if you buy a new computer, install and activate S&T, then decide you need a better computer, you will have to buy another copy. To be on the safe side, I guess you could go with the 60 day free trial until you are sure you are going to keep the computer.
Anyway, I now have S&T 2009 in my great new Acer 11.6 inch Netbook and it works great in the car. I almost went with a full size 15 inch laptop, but they were out of the one I wanted. Salesman talked me into the Netbook. Now that I have used it, it's a far better option for S&T use in a vehicle. I highly recomend it. One drawback is that netbook computers don't come with CD/DVD drives. So I had to also buy an external one. All told, with tax, $445., about the same as a low price full size laptop.
Al

I do not have a desktop. My wife and I each have a laptop. Can I install S and T on two laptops if I don't install it on a desktop?

The following quote is from Streets & Trips 2010 > Help > About > Microsoft software license terms...

I think in this case the important term is "primary user".

Would that be the "primary user" of the device or the program? My wife doesn't use the program at all, but I sometimes use her computer.

Don't take my word for it (consult your team of legal advisers instead ), but one interpretation of the above statement could be that you may in fact install the second copy of Streets and Trips 2010 on a laptop that belongs to anyone, as long as S&T will only be used on that laptop by you (the primary user of the 1st PC on which S&T has been installed).

Any lawyers out there???

It was the 2007 version.

I have the 2007 2008 and 2009 versions.

insanitor:

Thanks for that answer. I had guessed that from the comments on the site, but it is always good to get it straight from someone who has used all three.

I have bought the 2007 version and installed it. I got the one with the GPS receiver that sounds like the best one offered by Microsoft. I will probably download the 2010 version and try that, and then decide whether the new maps and features are enough to balance out the activation hassles.

Jim M.

I think the main difference between the 2007 version and the newer ones is that the 2007 version does not seem to come with automatic rerouting in case you make a wrong turn somewhere.

A lot of people here hate rerouting but I like it. I don't want to press the "go" button every time I make a mistake.

The other difference is that the 2007 version will not speak the street names.

Newb here but I just can't leave this alone.
You're more than welcome to throw bricks Ken.

I've been using S&T for a few years now. The 2 installation limit has always rubbed me the wrong way.

Bit of history first.

Purchase 1; (not sure what version. 06 I think)
When I first got S&T I installed it on out PC and my laptop. I work on the road so it worked out good.
Then my wife got a laptop and when I tried to install it is when I got introduced to the 2 installion limit.

Purchase 2; (version 08)
Bought another copy so my wife could have it on her laptop, and of course I wanted the later version also so I installed it on my laptop also. (2nd purchase used up)

Purchase 3; (version 08)
Not long after purchase 2 my laptop'd hard drive had to be wiped because of a virus or something. New hard drive installed but lost S&T in the process. I even called customer service and explained the situation, (a couple times). They gave me 2 different activation numbers. Both had a trial time limit on them. Finally broke down and purchased another copy...
Gettin wiser though, I only installed it once...LOL
Another year or so, (+or- not sure), goes buy and my laptop is slowly dieing. Bought a new laptop, and thankfully I have one installation left on purchase 3 S&T.
Been using this one for a few months on the new laptop but lately the map screen flashes on and off whenever I start the GPS tracking feature.

So I'm investigating whether to buy yet another copy and I see they have the 2010 trail downloadable vesion on MS website. I just downloaded it a couple days ago. No more flashing screen, but of course now I need to purchase the new version before my 60 days run out...

Here's the way I look at it.

Say bikerjoe has 3 towtrucks. He buys those 6 new tires for it and 2 weeks later the transmission goes out. Now he has 6 new tires on a truck that won't move.
He's not complaining about buying one tire for each wheel, but Goodyear sure doesn't say he can't take those new tires off the broken down truck and put 'em on one of the other trucks,
He could put 'em on 200 different trucks and Goodyear has no say in the matter. He could give 'em to you to put on your truck, no big deal to Goodyear.

All I'm saying is when a body buys something it should be theirs to do with as they see fit.

I don't make money with S&T. It's just a navigational tool and/or toy to me. The first one I bought wasn't 40 bucks either. It was 100+ bucks. It's getting a little expensive...

Let the brick throwing commence...LOL

1stwarrior95, I'm with you.

In my situation, I have been using Microsoft Streets and Trips since the '05 version. I didn't go for the '08 because I didn't see any improvement over my '07 version. When S&T 2009 came out the coverage of Mexico was vastly improved and as I drive to Mexico almost every winter, I had to have it. I purchased it last fall and installed it on my desktop. We ended up not going south last winter and as I read on this forum about quite a few glitches with '09 I held off using my second installation for my old laptop.
We are planning on going to Mexico this winter so I took the plunge and installed it on the laptop. When I tried to open the program, it came up with an error message totaly unknown to Microsoft. As you have to open the program in order to register, and the program did not open, I did not use up my second install. Purchased a new Acer Netbook and was able to install S&T 2009 on it. I see now that if I had been able to open the program on the old laptop and the problem came up then, I would not have been able to use it on the new one. I would have had to buy a second copy.
When I first booted up S&T 2009 on the new computer, it gave me the option of registering it or running it as a free trial for 60 days. If I went for the 60 day trial, I would have two months to see if the new netbook. was what I wanted. If you are puting S&T into an old computer, this would give you 60 days to see if it was about to pack it in. As the trial ran out, you could then register it on on either the old one or a new unit. It would seem that you could run the trial on as many units as you wanted within the 60 day period.
Al

Yes, the sixty-day trial period is a good thing that we do not sufficiently acknowledge. I agree that it is a good way of working around suspect hardware. Although I have purchased S&T2010, I will not activate until I have to. One never knows when the computer is going to fail.

My thoughts precisely!

Hi 1stwarrior95,

Duck, here comes the brick...

Repeat after me: "I shall backup my systems from now on."

...ken...

Obviously, the current limitations on the number of end-users installations irritates us. When I say "us," mean to imply probably the product's most loyal customer base. So, the question to Microsoft might be "is it worth it?"

In other words, what is the financial model? With a more relaxed installation policy, would MSFT enjoy fewer or more sales? Perhaps they have done that math. I suspect the policy is purely arbitrary rather than backed up by market data.

Hahaha!
Good to know you have a sense of humor...LOL

Since I'm close to computer illiterate, I don't know how to do that on most stuff. My documents, pics, etc, I can copy or save to flashdrive, extrenal hard drive, but programs, software is outa my league.
Which brings up a question. If I was to backup S&T, (I'm assuming backup means to copy somewhere else), wouldn't that be technically the same as pirating a copy?

Hi SpadesFlush,

You make it sound like a popularity contest. Microsoft is, first, interested in being profitable. They will only respond to a popularity issue if there is substance to it. They currently allow two activations for one purchase, not just technically but also in the license agreement wording.

Most commercial software only allows one installation in the license agreement.

I would also love to be able to buy software and install it on unlimited numbers of computers (I currently own five that are working) if I'm the only one who will be using it on any of them. But even so, I simply cannot find any way to be sympathetic with anyone who believes Microsoft is unfair by restricting it to two simultaneous activations.

I'm sure that Microsoft has done the research and came to the conclusion that with this particular application it would be "fair" and "popular" if they allow it to be installed on, say, a desktop for planning and a laptop for navigation. I'm sure their numbers tell them such an allowance will be perceived as both fair and popular and that the need for more simultaneous activations will be relatively rare.

Recovery from system problems is a very different issue. That requires responsibility on the part of the system owner to take reasonable precautions and on the part of the software manufacturer to be reasonably helpful in the restoration process. That applies regardless of the number of activations allowed.

...ken...

If you were to buy a new house and MS tells you you have to buy 5 new computers because you installed the old 5 in your old house and they have to stay there you'd be a little peaved maybe...? All new furniture. clothes, car in the garage... All must be purchased new because you installed the old stuff already.... And don't even think of 2 family members using those 2 new bathrooms at the same time...
See what I'm gettin at?

I paid for the software, where or how many times I use it should be up to me.


Which they did not do for me.

Yes, I do. You're really stretching it. None of your analogy is even close to reality.

Nope. You paid for a license to use the software. That's quite a different thing. If you want to know what you really paid for, read the license agreement. It will tell you exactly what you can and cannot do with it.

I definitely sympathize. I have not had this experience. First, I do copious backups so I can usually just restore things to a working condition. Second, on the couple of occasions I've had to call Microsoft they were quite reasonable about helping me get things working again.

This seems to be your primary beef. I agree that this is an issue. But it has nothing to do with the number of activations. If the manufacturer refuses to be reasonable (and you don't have a backup you can restore a working system from) you have a legitimate complaint. I'm with you 100% on that.

...ken...

Yea, probably not close to reality but sometime ya have to stretch things to get a point across.


Nope, I bought software. The license agreement does me no good whatsoever and is just something tacked on so i have to buy the software again...
If I bought a license agreement, I should be able to use any MS software?


Back to my other question, backups are copies?

I guess my primary beef is having to buy mulitple copys of the same thing to get it to work on different machines.
To me that is piracy in itself.
If you buy a music cd and play it on your way home in the car stereo, then play it on the home stereo, there's no law that says you can't play it on your buddies stereo. This is the same thing no matter how you slice it. As with my other analogys.
As long as people support stuff like this it will only continue and get worse.

BTW, I just bought S&T 2010 a few minutes ago, Since I already have it downloaded on my laptop, all I really need is the number so I can register it. I don't have a problem buying the newer version.
I just think I should be able to still use the older versions if I so choose. I did buy them fair and square.

You guys should stop the arguing. It will not help matters nor will it encourage an equitable solution.

Hahaha. Probably true!

1stwarrior95;
Read the license agreement. Ken is right you bought a license to use the software, not the software itself. Every piece of software on your system, including the operating system itself, is there under a license. Even software like OpenOffice.org and Firefox that you can freely distribute and install on as many systems that you want are governed by licenses that spell out what you can and cannot do and are binding legal agreements between you and the grantor of the license.

regards
Keith

Everything is licensed these days guys.
I did not buy a license. I bought a product.

I really have no need to read the licence agreement because I'd have to hire a lawyer to interpret it anyway.
And if I remember correctly, I have to buy the product to be able to read the license agreement. Or is it on the outside somewhere?

Like I said before, as long as people agree what they're doing is right, it will only get worse. Wake up man.

In this case, we buy licensed software; the license is inseparable from the software product.

However, that doesn't mean we have to roll over and like it. And if we don't like it, the license does not deprive us of our rights to express ourselves accordingly.

And, yes, it is a beauty contest. We vote with our credit cards; any sensible vendor should take note of that.

And, fortunately LaptopGPSWorld gives me the option to not receive email notification of 'new' posts in this thread!

Terry

Sorry son you are the one that needs to wake up. You did not buy the software I know of no one that sells software. All that is sold is a license to use the software. Think about it, if you bought the software then how could they sell it to anyone else? it is not like a piece of hardware that you build and sell as a whole. To sell the product you would have to sell the source code and once you do that you lose ownership rights in it. MS like every other company is in business to make money. In software you do not make money by selling the source code, you make your money by selling a license to use the software.
That is one reason that I try to use as much open source software as I can. Most of it is covered by an open license that protects there trademarks an such, but allows it to be used on multiple systems and often freely distributed.

Regards
Keith

Keith is correct. I've been a computer professional for over thirty years and I can confirm this to be the truth. I managed the PC group in a phone company for a number of years. It has been my business to understand this sort of stuff to make sure we did not get our shorts sued off for misuse ... no small chore when you have thousands of people using the stuff and each one has their own ideas of what they can do with it.

It's not simply to be argumentative. There is a point of law here. Regardless of what you would like to think you bought, what you actually bought is the right to use the software under the terms and conditions laid out in the license agreement.

We can talk about whether we like or dislike those terms of use, and why we do or don't, but they are what they are right now. So we have a choice to buy and abide by them or not buy if we don't wish to abide by them.

Not in the sense we are discussing. Most backup methods do not create a copy that is functional. That is, the backup copy is usually stored in a way that it can't be used.

You can continue to use the older versions as long as you want. Your right to use the older versions does not end when you buy a new one.

Be well.

...ken...

Insanitor's 5 ways to get past the 2 computers & activation limit:

1). Blow up your vehicle with TNT and call the cops. I am sure Microsoft will feel sorry for you and will alllow you to install S&T onto a third computer.

2). Move your sattelite's position with the thrusters and allow it to be blown up by an approaching asteroid. Then collect the insurance money. You can then use the money to buy 32,768 copies of S&T.

3). Change your name. That means you're a new person with another two PC activation opportunity.

4). Don't use the software on the street or on a trip, making the license agreement null and void. This way you can install it on as many computers as you want to.

5). Don't activate the software, instead, just energize it. If that doesn't work you can always just initiate it.

Ah Hah!!! Now I see where the "insan" in "insanitor" comes from!!!!



...ken...

so....

did this ever truely get answered?