HomeGarmin


nRoute and CNNT 2010
GadgetGirl
This is my first post here, be gentle!

OK, I know this has been discussed a thousand times, but I want to make absolutely sure I am doing this right. (Some of the other threads go off on tangents that don't pertain to my set-up.)

Here is what I use:

nRoute 2.7.6 (I don't like Mobile PC)
Mapsource 6.15.7
Garmin GPSMap 60CSx as receiver
City Navigator NA NT 2008 (unlocked to above receiver)
City Select NA v6 (unlocked to an old GPS 18)
Garmin Topo US 2008
WIN7 Home Premium (32bit)

I want to purchase CNNT 2010. I know I have to convert the maps with MapReverseConverter so that I can use them with nRoute. I have d/l'd the converter app and I think I understand that I "point" the converter at the newly installed CNNT 2010 .gmap file and have them go into the target directory, which for me will be C:\Garmin\nRoute. (For some reason, I could not get my older maps to show up when installed into the default Garmin dir. with Win7.) I then just unlock as usual with the GPSMap 60CSx, right? I also have the CNNT 2008 maps in the GPSMap 60CSx as I use it as a handheld also.

I just want to make sure I understand this before I purchase the new maps.



Thanks!
Karen
GadgetGirl
Also, on another post I saw that MapReverseConverter is suppose to convert the .gmap folder at C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\GARMIN\Maps (WinXP). There is no similar folder in Win7. There is no AppData folder as there was in XP. Guess I will just have to search for .gmap file using Windows "Search Programs and Files"?
tcassidy
The folder for Vista is C:\Program Data\GARMIN\Maps. I would assume that is the same for Win7 as I have that folder on my Win7 computer.

You can have MapReverse Converter put the converted files anywhere you want (e.g. C:\Garmin) as it adds an entry to the registry telling MapSource and nRoute where to look.

I might suggest you unlock CNNANT 2010 to your 60CSx before you convert it.

Terry
Ken in Regina
Hi GadgetGirl,

You've done your homework well. Follow Terry's suggestion about unlocking the new maps before converting, but be prepared that you might need to unlock the converted ones anyway.

Do you have your older maps working okay in Win7 now, or are they still not showing up? If there is still a problem, can you be more specific about what you mean by "not showing up"? Not showing up in Mapsource? In nRoute? In both? Any error message(s)?

...ken...
GadgetGirl
Thanks for the replies! This helps a lot.
I wouldn't have thought to unlock the maps to the 60CSx first. I will put the converted maps in the Garmin\nRoute dir where all of the other maps already reside.

I had a tough time getting it all working in Windows 7. I almost gave up. Some of the problems were due just to the idiosyncrasies of Win7 that I didn't fully understand yet. (nRoute was one of the first apps I installed after putting Win7 on my XP netbook.) I have the original nRoute disks that ship with 2 City Select map disks. It forces you to install City Select and there is a lot of flipping back & forth between the 3 disks. Win7, as many of you probably know, does not put running apps on the taskbar the same as in previous Win OS's. The installation windows were "hidden" on the taskbar tabs as I switched discs and I was missing them. Hard to explain. Once I realized this, I was able to get everything installed. The nRoute installation defaulted to the Garmin\nRoute directory. The City Select and City Nav installations defaulted to the Garmin dir. For some reason, installing into the Garmin dir prevented them from showing up in nRoute. I can't remember whether they were visible in Mapsource as I was pulling my hair out at this point! Long story short, everything worked fine when the maps were installed into the nRoute dir. The problem may have originated because of all the aborted installations. Maybe the Registry had improper entries.

I currently have a C:\Garmin\nRoute\CNNANT2008 dir (along with the other map dir's). There is no .gmap file. I am assuming CN2008 doesn't create a .gmap file. Is that correct?
Would it be OK to just have the converter place the converted CN2010 maps into the future CN2010 dir? I am assuming it doesn't matter.

Whew! Sometimes it seems like it would just be simpler to ditch the nRoute and get Mobile PC, but I just don't like it as much! I like all the functionality of nRoute.
GadgetGirl
Now that I think about it, I think the problem I had with the installation in Windows 7 was unlocking the maps or viewing the maps. I was getting error messages. I don't remember what they were. Like I said, I was getting frustrated at this point!
Ken in Regina
I understand the frustration. With Vista most of the rules changed in the name of "security". Windows 7 is really just Vista SP3 with a new name.

The new file format and location didn't happen until City Navigator Europe 2009 and CN North America 2010.

Quote:
Would it be OK to just have the converter place the converted CN2010 maps into the future CN2010 dir? I am assuming it doesn't matter.
I'm not quite sure what you're asking. As a general answer, it doesn't matter where ReverseMapConverter puts the converted maps. It will create the necessary registry entry for Mapsource and nRoute to find them, wherever they are.

If you are suggesting to let the converted maps go into the either C:\GARMIN\CNNA2010NT or C:\GARMIN\nRoute\CNNA2010NT, the answer is yes, that's okay.

If you are suggesting letting the converted maps go into the same directory as the unconverted maps, that's probably not very wise.

...ken...
tcassidy
CNNANT 2008 is an old style Garmin map that does not require conversion to work with nRoute. It would not have created a gmap folder.

The registry keys that tell MapSource and nRoute how to find installed maps (the old style or converted ones) are the same for XP, Vista and Win7. They are located at HKLM\SOFTWARE\Garmin\MapSource\FamiliesNT which points to the location the map is installed.

Note that the converted maps will have a different identifier (e.g. FAMILY_205 for CNNANT 2010.2) but the location and map designator can be seen by opening the key.

Terry
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Registry NT.jpg (29.1 KB)
GadgetGirl
Quote:

I'm not quite sure what you're asking. As a general answer, it doesn't matter where ReverseMapConverter puts the converted maps. It will create the necessary registry entry for Mapsource and nRoute to find them, wherever they are.

If you are suggesting to let the converted maps go into the either C:GARMINCNNA2010NT or C:GARMINnRouteCNNA2010NT, the answer is yes, that's okay.

If you are suggesting letting the converted maps go into the same directory as the unconverted maps, that's probably not very wise.

...ken...
That's what I was asking. Thanks!
GadgetGirl
Quote:
CNNANT 2008 is an old style Garmin map that does not require conversion to work with nRoute. It would not have created a gmap folder.

The registry keys that tell MapSource and nRoute how to find installed maps (the old style or converted ones) are the same for XP, Vista and Win7. They are located at HKLMSOFTWAREGarminMapSourceFamiliesNT which points to the location the map is installed.

Note that the converted maps will have a different identifier (e.g. FAMILY_205 for CNNANT 2010.2) but the location and map designator can be seen by opening the key.

Terry
Thanks Terry! After I posted earlier, I did take a look at the Registry entries and I saw the Families. There was a family for the really old maps (City Select, Topo, Trip&Waypoint Manager and a family for NT. I saw the installation locations.

I think I have this figured out now. I didn't want to spend $100 until I was sure I had it straight!



Karen
Ken in Regina
Hi Karen,

Now that you have all this map stuff figured out for Mapsource and nRoute, you want to start on Mobile PC??

...ken...
GadgetGirl


Oh, I have a whole new set of questions for Mobile PC! Like:

Can I use a set of maps in both nRoute and Mobile PC?,
Should I use my current Garmin CSx handheld with Mobile PC?,
Should I just buy the software?

Are you sorry you asked?
tcassidy
You can not use the maps included with Mobile PC (software only or GPS version) with nRoute (or MapSource for that matter). They are precompiled as img files.

You can use your CSx with the software-only version of Mobile PC with a minor modification or by interfacing with GPS Gate. Whether you should or not is another question.

If you buy the software-only version, you can not add other locked maps to the product. Nonlocked maps (not unlocked maps) will work though. The version that includes a GPS (USB 20x or BT 10x) will allow the use of locked maps but they must be unlocked to the GPS that ships with the product. That version is also eligible for updates (for an extra cost).

You can transfer routes,waypoints, tracks and non-locked maps between MapSource and Mobile PC similarly to the way you would with your CSx.

Terry
GadgetGirl
I hate buying yet another receiver. In regard to GPS Gate, this is interesting:
"GPS signal splitter - One GPS receiver can normally feed signal to only one GPS software at a time. GpsGate Express can let users run up to two GPS applications, and GpsGate (standard version) lets us share a GPS between any number of applications."

I could use nRoute AND Mobile PC at the same time! AND National Geographic TOPO (which will live track with my unit).
(The passenger seat already looks like an airplane cockpit as in addition to all the GPS stuff, I run iTunes through the car stereo from the netbook. I frequently can't get out of the car cause I'm tangled up in cables!)
Ken in Regina
Yes, you could feed nRoute from GPSGate's virtual Garmin COM port and Mobile PC from one of the regular COM ports it creates.

Just to follow up on Terry's comments, you will not be able to use your 60 with Mobile PC without some sort of intervention (GPSGate or a hacked version of Mobile PC). For some strange reason Mobile PC is written so that it works great with virtually every non-Garmin receiver on the planet but refuses to work with most Garmin devices.

I have an eTrex Legend HCx handheld and a GPS10x Bluetooth receiver. Mobile PC refuses to work with either one of them.

Re: locked versus unlocked maps. You could, for instance, use Mapsource to compile tiles from your Topo maps for use in Mobile PC (same process as loading to your 60), but not tiles from your CNNA2008 maps.

As Terry said, you can't go the other direction (use the preloaded maps from Mobile PC with nRoute).

...ken...
GadgetGirl
Quote:

For some strange reason Mobile PC is written so that it works great with virtually every non-Garmin receiver on the planet but refuses to work with most Garmin devices.
...ken...
That makes no sense at all!!!


Quote:
I have an eTrex Legend HCx handheld and a GPS10x Bluetooth receiver. Mobile PC refuses to work with either one of them.
I thought the GPS10X Bluetooth was one of the receivers that you could get with Mobile PC.
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=13484&pvID=28845


Quote:
Re: locked versus unlocked maps. You could, for instance, use Mapsource to compile tiles from your Topo maps for use in Mobile PC (same process as loading to your 60), but not tiles from your CNNA2008 maps.

As Terry said, you can't go the other direction (use the preloaded maps from Mobile PC with nRoute).
I'm not sure what you mean here. What are tiles and how do you compile them? I transfer maps (states), waypoints and routes to the 60. I'm probably missing something obvious here.

Edit: Is a tile like when you "select" a state in Mapsource, then transfer the map to the unit?
Or, in Topo, you can select an individual square in a state (I just now discovered this in Topo! I've never uploaded from Topo as it came with a SD card.) Is a "square" on the grid a "tile"?
tcassidy
The 10x that comes with Mobile PC works with it fine. Ken has a separate 10x that has problems working with the software version of Mobile PC. I have a separate 10x that works fine with both my software-only copies of Mobile PC (but didn't work with a copy I had that included a 20x).

I suspect the 10x receivers that ship with Mobile PC have a set of IDs that Mobile PC recognizes. Why my 10x works with the software version and Ken's doesn't, I don't know though; possibly a firmware issue.

As you have discovered, tiles are the areas that turn pink when you select them with the map tool. The ones selected are listed under the Maps tab on the left side of MapSource.

Terry
Ken in Regina
Hi Karen,

I guess it would have been easier if I had just said, "You can load maps to Mobile PC software-only version that are not locked, like your Topo maps. But you can't load maps that are locked, like your CNNA2008."

But you would have missed the opportunity to learn something new about Mapsource. (That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.)

Terry confirmed about the "tiles" or "segments" that you had already sussed out for yourself.

"Compiling" the maps is when you start the transfer to your device, Mapsource actually takes the data from all the map pieces you have selected and puts it all together into a single file to transfer to the device. You must have noticed the progress descriptions in the transfer dialog window as the transfer is occuring. First it puts all the pieces together (compiling), then it builds the necessary indexes, then it transfers the resulting "gmapsupp.img" file to the device.

So, "indexes" is a new word. In the GMAPSUPP.IMG file that Mapsource builds are loads of tables with data in them. POI data including categories, address data, city/town names, street names, etc. Indexes are kind of like tables of contents for the various kinds of data that helps the device search through all that data quicker when you want to find something.

I don't want to burst your bubble about those pretty pictures you see on the screen of your netbook or 60CSx but there are no pictures in the "map" file itself. The map file is just a complex database that contains the data I mentioned above plus data that describes all the objects to draw on the screen and where to place them in order to make it look like a map.

Confused yet? If not, we could talk about vector images versus raster images. Or....

...ken...
GadgetGirl
Quote:
Confused yet? If not, we could talk about vector images versus raster images.
LOL...got you there! I know all about vector vs raster as Photoshop is my other addiction!

Quote:
But you would have missed the opportunity to learn something new about Mapsource.
How true! "Compiling tiles", "loading maps". Who knew? I spent a couple of hours at work last night delving deeper into Mapsource. I have learned a lot. I "compiled tiles" onto a blank SD card and then took a look at it afterward to see exactly what kind of file it made. I always wondered, as I normally just upload to the receiver's card and never looked at the actual files.
WHAT! You mean it's not just a bunch of pretty pictures!

Seriously, I really appreciate the info. Understanding what goes on behind the scenes, so to speak, makes a big difference.
GadgetGirl
That really sucks that I can't use the CNNT2010 maps in both apps. I really wanted to play around with it. I thought that the maps were locked to the receiver, not the app. Don't they realize they lose money this way? Now, I won't buy MPC. I guess I could buy the whole package, but the last thing I need is another gadget! Hmmm......can one really have too many gadgets?


Ken in Regina
Quote:
I thought that the maps were locked to the receiver, not the app.
So, you want to get into it with Mobile PC, eh?! You are a sucker for punishment....

Here's the straight unvarnished truth. In Mobile PC,

A) The maps are locked to the app.
B) The maps are locked to the receiver.
C) All of the above.

[Drum roll, please...........]

The answer is........ C) All of the above. .... Ta-Da!!

A) Mobile PC software-only version is designed to work with any generic (non-Garmin) NMEA receiver so there's no Garmin device with a serial number AND a fixed format for the serial number AND a predictable means of querying the device for the serial number. So .... the maps are locked to the app. ....

.... Well, sort of. ... They're actually locked to the computer. When you install and activate Mobile PC software-only version it picks up something off the motherboard and locks to that.

That means that the maps are locked to the app which is locked to that single computer.

B) Mobile PC deluxe versions come with a Garmin receiver, either USB or Bluetooth. So, the maps can be treated just like with your 60CSX and locked to the Garmin GPS serial number. That means the deluxe versions can be used on multiple computers for trip planning and on any one of them for navigation with the GPS receiver they came with.

C) So, "All of the above" is the absolute truth.

Quote:
Don't they realize they lose money this way?
They probably don't. Lose money, that is.

Those who want the ability to treat their laptop exactly like a Garmin handheld and add other maps to it, locked or otherwise, will likely buy one of the deluxe versions (more Garmin revenue). Not much different than someone who has a 60CSx or Legend HCx but wants something with a bigger screen for the car/truck/SUV and cheaper than buying all but the cheapest refurbished Nuvi models.

You can treat the deluxe versions exactly as you would your 60CSx or a Nuvi. So you will likely update the maps occasionally (more Garmin revenue) or buy the lifetime update package for them (more Garmin revenue).

If you also have a Garmin handheld like a 60CSx or Legend HCx and want to use maps on both the handheld and Mobile PC you will buy a second unlock code (more Garmin revenue).

You have to buy a new version of the software-only version when you want the new maps for it. But it's actually cheaper to buy a new copy of the software-only version than it is to buy a CNNA 201x update DVD so owners will have even less reason to avoid updates (can I get yet another cha-ching?!).

Dunno.... Seems to me like they've pretty much got it covered.

Quote:
Hmmm......can one really have too many gadgets?
Of course not. Never. Not. Ever.

...ken...
GadgetGirl
I think I'll just stick to nRoute. This is making my head hurt! As long as I can convert the new maps, I'm happy.
Ken in Regina
I mostly understand it and it still makes my head hurt. .... but arntcha gladja ast???

...ken...
Marvin Hlavac
My head hurts, too, and I've long ago completely given up trying to understand it. It's good to know Ken & Terry are here to help us all.

By the way, Karen, I love the nature pictures in your album!
GadgetGirl
Quote:
but arntcha gladja ast???
I spose

Quote:
By the way, Karen, I love the nature pictures in your album!
Thanks, Marvin! In addition to all my GPS gadgets, I have a whole corral of photography gadgets. And, of course, the music gadgets!
Ken in Regina
Hi Karen,

What music gadgets? Instruments? Electronic stuff? Combination? I used to play flute and guitar way back. Now that I'm retired I'm thinking of taking guitar lessons to see if I can relearn something better.

...ken...
tcassidy
Of course you played flute, Ken. That was the only instrument I ever learned to play years ago. I have never been interested in trying again though.

Terry
Ken in Regina
The parallels never stop! Are you thinking of growing a beard someday?

...ken...
tcassidy
I've had a beard since I was 21. I assumed it was just because I was lazy. I did shave it off once some years ago but my wife said I looked too much like my brother (not a bad thing but confusing).

Terry
Ken in Regina
I grew mine when I got out of the Air Force when I was 23. The only time I shaved it was for our wedding, after which my wife promptly told me to grow it back. I'm not sure if it was the whisker burn (I'm otherwise a twice a day shaver) or she just got scared when she saw what she was really getting.

...ken...
tcassidy
Sorry, no services for me. I wouldn't have been able to put up with the structure.

I am also not particularly hirsute. Shaving probably would have been an every other day thing.

Terry
GadgetGirl
Quote:
What music gadgets? Instruments? Electronic stuff? Combination? I used to play flute and guitar way back. Now that I'm retired I'm thinking of taking guitar lessons to see if I can relearn something better
Oh my, no! Just iPod and all of its assorted cables, headphones, adapters, etc. And my 5.1 Klipsch and it's cables and sound cards.
I DID play the flute in the 8th grade. That lasted about 6 mos.
I always did want to be a R n R drummer though!

Oh and BTW, never had a beard!
SkiWithGPS
Karen, Ken, Terry...

I too ran into the problem of the newer maps not working with nRoute. Until I found this thread I thought I just had to live with it. But after reading this thread and others on this site, I discovered the MapReverseConverter application and I was able to successfully execute it against City Navigator Europe NT 2010.1. Unfortunately I discovered this reverse converter a little late because my trip to Germany was back in September. At the time I simply assumed that CNEuroNT would work with nRoute just as CNNA2009 did. I was shocked to discover it was incompatible with nRoute. Not to mention, the timing of this discovery was extremely inconvenient.

From time to time I do some cross country driving. Like everyone else, I like the fact that nRoute allows me to use the big screen on my laptop when taking these longer trips. And I find the screen on my Rino530 to be good enough when traveling around town. I particularly like using both when Geocaching. I understand that Garmin has to watch the bottom line but I was annoyed when their replacement product for nRoute was being treated as a GPSR unit itself. I did not appreciate that I would need to buy two unlock codes for the same map so I could use it with both MobilePC and my Rino530.

Thanks to all of you, I now have a work around.

Thank you very much.

Chris
SkiWithGPS
I do have a question. Why do we need to uninstall the original map after running the MapReverseConverter against it?
tcassidy
You don't but it is just wasting space. The newer MapSource versions work fine with the converted files. You just can't be sure which file MapSource is using unless you, at least, rename the gmap folder. As you are dealing with a locked map, I would keep a copy of the gmap folder somewhere convenient like on a DVD.

Terry
SkiWithGPS
Makes sense.

again.
© Laptop GPS WorldContact