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Ken in Regina
True for newer generation iFruits but don't forget there are still a lot of the old ones out there that need the original cables. Like my wife's old Mini that the grandkids are still using.

Of course none of them have any sort of accessible file system anyway so anything other than the most basic data transfer, like archiving photos, isn't even possible.

...ken...
Boyd
I still have my 32gb iPod Touch from 2008, it uses the old style Apple cable. However I thought there was only one kind of cable then, as opposed to charging vs data cables.

I don't use it anymore, battery died long ago. Used to keep it in my VW, plugged into the special iPod connector in the glove box, so I could access 32gb of music on the stereo. It was always a bit flakey though - mostly because of the instability of the connector which would come un-seated. I think that was mainly the fault of the awkward VW-supplied cable though. My new VW doesn't have the special iPod port anymore though.

Anyway, you should be able to access the filesystem on your old iOS devices. Exactly how old they are and their iOS version will affect this, at some point Apple started locking things down more securely. But even the newer devices still allow an amount of access.

I use a program called iMazing (have it installed on both my Mac and Windows machines). I think you can use it for free in demo mode, but it has limits on the amount of data it will transfer.

https://imazing.com/iphone-file-transfer

There are several other programs that do the same kind of thing. I used a free open source program awhile ago (can't remember the name) and it gave me full access to virtually everything on my iPhone 4. I was surprised this was possible without jailbreaking. Apple has made things much more secure today though.
Ken in Regina
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyd
I still have my 32gb iPod Touch from 2008, it uses the old style Apple cable. However I thought there was only one kind of cable then, as opposed to charging vs data cables.
Yes. I was referring to the old style cables plus the new cables. That makes two, not just one as you suggested.

...ken...
Ken in Regina
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyd
...

Anyway, you should be able to access the filesystem on your old iOS devices. Exactly how old they are and their iOS version will affect this, at some point Apple started locking things down more securely. But even the newer devices still allow an amount of access. ...
My wife's iPad Mini is the only Apple device in the house. My daughter and her family have a houseful of iFruit so I just let the grandkids provide the tech suppport.

...ken...
GoneNomad
^ correct.

The original iPhone to the iPhone 4S use a 30-pin cable/connector, and the iPhone 5 onward use an 8-pin cable/connector ("lightning").

The larger point is that Apple has been notorious from the getgo for using non-standard - and usually expensive - proprietary charging cables for their laptops & other mobile devices, and for being slow to adopt conveniences like wireless charging that they didn't invent. If there's ever a company that seems proud about having a 'not invented here' mindset, it's Apple. It's been that way since the '80s, time and again, with Apple introducing new, supposedly better standards (e.g.: Firewire) that wind up being orphaned, and being slow to adopt industry standards (like USB) that would make it easier for end users. When Apple finally did start putting USB ports on Macs, look at how slow they were to adopt USB3... why? Because it made the then-current iteration of Firewire obsolete.

Although the latest Android devices use USB-C, any microUSB cable will charge any older (and most newer) Android devices, but the advent of power-hungrier devices and the desire for faster charging outstripped what a standard USB cable was capable of doing, so adaptations were made.
Boyd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken in Regina
That makes two, not just one as you suggested.
Well I think you just like to argue.

But we were discussing cables that look the same but are actually different. Nobody would confuse an old iPhone and new iPhone cable, they look completely different. But they all provide the same functions - both charging and data transfer, so you don't need any "testers" to find the right kind for your application.
Boyd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken in Regina
My daughter and her family have a houseful of iFruit so I just let the grandkids provide the tech suppport.
That's fine, makes sense. But above you complained:

"Of course none of them have any sort of accessible file system anyway so anything other than the most basic data transfer, like archiving photos, isn't even possible."

I was simply pointing out that it's possible to access the filesystem and do other things if you want. You just need the right software.
Boyd
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneNomad
If there's ever a company that seems proud about having a 'not invented here' mindset, it's Apple.
I have plenty of complaints about Apple, and am not a Tim Cook fan. As a matter of principle, I am also suspicious of anything that the largest company in the world does.

However, I started using Apple products in 1978 with the Apple ][ - I was one of the first 5000 people to buy one in fact. Have owned/used virtually every generation of their computers and managed an office full of them. I would not have stuck with them if they weren't well-designed, durable products that do what I need.

I learned ALGOL in 1967 and typed programs on punch cards to submit to the Burroughs B-5500 mainframe at the University of Virginia computing center. Then I used BASIC on a timesharing system with teletype terminals in the late 60's. In the 70's I learned FORTAN and wrote some 3d graphics software with output on an HP plotter with a timesharing system connected to an IBM 360 mainframe at the Carnegie-Mellon computing center. I also used home computers based on the CP/M operating system in the early 1980's, tutoring an executive in building databases with dBase III.

In the late 1980's I learned BSD unix that was running on a VAX 11/750 Mini Computer. Later, I got an AT&T 3B/1 "unix pc" and wrote some software that you can still find in the archives of the comp.sys.3b1 usenet newsgroup.

I had some experience with DOS and Windows, and ran Virtual PC on my Mac for awhile. Didn't get a real PC until the late 1990's . I spend quite a bit of time on Windows these days developing maps for https://boydsmaps.com

But the Mac is still my choice for creative work, and I used it for all the projects here http://www.boydostroff.com

Originally Apple had a clear lead in this sort of software, but today the platform doesn't matter as much. I like Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro though, and they don't run on Windows. I have two milk crates of firewire disk drives full of video going back to 2001 (they have all been archived on a couple 5tb USB 3.0 drives now, and also stored in the cloud on BackBlaze). Firewire certainly had its problems, but it worked and became a standard for video over many years - in spite of the fact that Windows never embraced it.

Anyway - this has gotten way off-topic for the thread - my point is that I have used most computer platforms and they all have strengths and weaknesses. My opinions on this are based on personal experience, and not vague ideas of operating systems and hardware I've never used. And I don't feel any need to use terms like "ifruit" to put down systems I don't own or understand.

But getting back around to the "not invented here" syndrome, Windows has been the poster child for that over the years. Arguably, Steve Jobs greatest contribution to Apple was switching to a unix-based operating system when he returned to the company. MacOS has a core of BSD unix, which they released as an open source project called "Darwin". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system)

I can open a terminal window on my Mac and do all the same things I did with BSD unix on that VAX 11/750 back in 1985. Apple continued to build on this base over the years, and in fact, iOS is just another variant that has the same Darwin at its core.

OTOH, Microsoft was really slow to embrace a standard like unix and this resulted in some really buggy versions of Windows over the years.

Yesterday, I went up to New York to give my daughter's family a 2018 MacBook Air as an early Christmas gift. My daughter used my Apple ][ for games in the early 1980s and was doing drawings in MacPaint before she was 5 years old. She is operations manager for a big firm in New York City now with an office full of PC's, but still prefers the Mac. My granddaughter knew the basics of viewing photos on an iPhone before she was even a year old! On the trip to New York yesterday, I used a combination of the Garmin StreetPilot app on my iPhone and my own maps on a Garmin DriveSmart 61.

So.... use whatever platform you like and be happy. There are plenty of good reasons to use Windows and Android instead of MacOS and iOS. But I think you may be missing the big picture a bit, and you clearly aren't speaking from the perspective of someone with personal experience doing practical work on multiple operating systems.

Alright... enough said.
Ken in Regina
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyd
Well I think you just like to argue.
Touche!

Quote:
But we were discussing cables that look the same but are actually different. Nobody would confuse an old iPhone and new iPhone cable, they look completely different. But they all provide the same functions - both charging and data transfer, so you don't need any "testers" to find the right kind for your application.
True. I got focused on "different cables" and didn't even notice "same form factor".

...ken...
Ken in Regina
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyd
That's fine, makes sense. But above you complained:

"Of course none of them have any sort of accessible file system anyway so anything other than the most basic data transfer, like archiving photos, isn't even possible."

I was simply pointing out that it's possible to access the filesystem and do other things if you want. You just need the right software.
Speaking of liking to argue...

I started and developed the PC support operation at our medium sized telco here back in the 80s. I was responsible for bringing the first electronic fruit into the business: the right tool for the right job. It took us six months of solid work to build that first business case for Apple products. I ran that group for nearly 10 years, including developing the Apple support side of it.

I can state categorically that it is, and always has been, a proper pain in the ass trying to access what passes for a filing system on them.

You can do anything if you work at it hard enough. I was referring to the effort needed by the average user. If you know what to look for you can find a few tools that help somewhat. The average user just looks at you with a blank stare when you start talking about that sort of thing.

...ken...
Ken in Regina
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyd
...

However, I started using Apple products in 1978 with the Apple ][ - I was one of the first 5000 people to buy one in fact. Have owned/used virtually every generation of their computers and managed an office full of them. I would not have stuck with them if they weren't well-designed, durable products that do what I need.

I learned ALGOL in 1967 and typed programs on punch cards to submit to the Burroughs B-5500 mainframe at the University of Virginia computing center.

...
Ah, the memories... I started doing Fortran on punch cards for an IBM 1150 in '72. [Did 5 year hitch in the military first then finished high school, so I was a late starter.]

Worked on the first team on PDP-11s on the RSX-11 and RT-11 real-time system, programming alarm systems [in Assembler] for monitoring our switching equipment. Etc.

Quote:
...

But the Mac is still my choice for creative work, ...
Yes. The right tool for the right job. For the sorts of things someone like my wife and my daughter's family use them for they are the perfect tools. Although my daughter's family also has a houseful of PCs they have inherited from Grampa as I play with newer toys.

The grandchildren and their friends are computer agnostic. They learn enough to use the tools for what they need them for. I don't think my grandchildren have any real sense of there even being any sort of conflict between Apple and Microsoft. It's like hammers and lawnmowers; they grab the one that works best for the job and have at it.

[See, I can be agreeable. ]

...ken...
Boyd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken in Regina
Speaking of liking to argue...
Well, that's why we're here in the first place, isn't it?

I don't quite understand your comments about "what passes for a filing system" on on the Mac. Is that based on your experience in the 1980's? That was Apple's old, proprietary system which was completely replaced when Apple introduced Mac OS X in 2001.

Ever since then, Apple has used the unix filesystem and I fail to see why that's "a proper pain in the ass". Anyone familiar with unix won't have much trouble finding their way around...

Code:
% cd /usr
% ls -alg
total 0
drwxr-xr-x@    9 wheel    306 Jul 13  2017 .
drwxr-xr-x    49 wheel   1734 Dec  2 21:53 ..
drwxr-xr-x  1068 wheel  36312 Dec 28  2017 bin
drwxr-xr-x   285 wheel   9690 Dec 28  2017 lib
drwxr-xr-x   212 wheel   7208 Dec 28  2017 libexec
drwxr-xr-x@    7 wheel    238 Jul 18  2017 local
drwxr-xr-x   250 wheel   8500 Dec 28  2017 sbin
drwxr-xr-x    47 wheel   1598 Jul 13  2017 share
drwxr-xr-x     5 wheel    170 Apr 28  2017 standalone

% man ls
LS(1)                     BSD General Commands Manual                    LS(1)

NAME
     ls -- list directory contents

SYNOPSIS
     ls [-ABCFGHLOPRSTUW@abcdefghiklmnopqrstuwx1] [file ...]

DESCRIPTION
     For each operand that names a file of a type other than directory, ls
     displays its name as well as any requested, associated information.  For
     each operand that names a file of type directory, ls displays the names
     of files contained within that directory, as well as any requested, asso-
     ciated information.
Ken in Regina
I understand that Apple's underlying file system is Unix and has been for a long time. The "pain in the ass" is getting at it and finding out where things are. And it's much worse finding something that will let you get at it on iOS/WatchOS/etc. Same issue on Android devices. Yes, there are tools on those platforms that let you access their file systems. Sort of...

Most of these apps do not actually expose the file system, as you displayed it. They give you a user interface that they think will be easier for the average person to use. Given how few people actually want, or have need, to access the file system directly, they're probably not wrong.

But for someone like me who likes to tinker, or someone who sometimes needs to access the filesystem for support purposes, it's difficult trying to find a tool that will expose the filesystem in a way that makes it as easy as, say, Windows File Explorer or dozens of other Windows apps. And a colossal pain in the ass if you don't have one.

...ken...
Boyd
Well the "average user" would be lost with full access to the filesystem. They are much happier just dragging photos to apps, etc. I still don't quite see your point though. I use Windows Explorer heavily daily and see very little difference between it and the Finder on the Mac.

The example I posted above comes from the Terminal app that has been included on every Mac since 2001. You get standard unix shell that allows you to access anything. But you can also access just about everything directly from the finder on the Mac, if you have an idea of where to look. Use the "Go to folder" menu command and enter the name of the folder you want. For example.
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Ken in Regina
Sorry I wasn't more clear. I was primarily referring to/bellyaching about the portable stuff everyone's using now (Does anyone still use MacOS? ) . I got my wife an iPad mini a few years ago and the kids all have iPhones and iPads. Try to find an app that gives you Finder style view and access to the file system. It's almost as bad on Android.

You're right about today's average user being lost in it. They use them like appliances - as they should be able to. But they aren't appliances quite yet and occasionally need to be bailed out, preferably without having to resort to a reset.

...ken...
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